My question is — if all our motives, choices are reward based, even without our conscious awareness, is that really free will?
We have to have some mechanism for decision making. If you took away any influences at all we’d be a pretty indecisive bunch.
So based on your question I’d say the you and I are operating on different definitions of what freewill is. What is your definition of freewill? Is it this:
the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded by any factors.
I guess my question is: how could there be any exercise freewill if there aren’t any variables?
“the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded by any factors”
For the most part, yes. Nature has to fool us in order for us to be interested in sex (gives dopamine rushes like shooting up heroin), to raise children (oxytocin and vasopressin), to eat, dopamine. So it seems to me that if I have a choice to eat a banana over ice cream, I might get short term benefits from eating the ice cream (more dopamine) but more long term reward for eating the banana, and anticipation of a reward is more rewarding. That might be the variables you are talking about. I guess my point is all variables are rewarding in some way. So is that free will? I personally don’t think free will exists. That’s not to say we don’t make decisions, but they appear to always be based on other factors.
I always took “freewill” to only mean, “the ability to make decisions.” That’s how I’ve always used it. As in, our futures are not set and before the future becomes the past, it is wide open to all possibilities and I am free to lay out my portion of it.
But yes, like with “free society,” we can make the term so literal that it becomes impossible to be true. I don’t mind being wrong on the definition of a term, so I’m cool saying that freewill doesn’t exist. There is no free society – unless we use the term as was intended…
But i do think that we make decisions. I do not think that we are forced to act or react in specific ways, even though we are definitely influenced. I think we can train ourselves to view rewards differently. I think we can manipulate our hormonal responses in our brains over time, either buy changing behavior or in helping change behavior.
I could be wrong – wouldn’t be the first time – but i cant help it, you understand, because I had no other choice but to think this and then type it out.
Alexander the great fought the persiand or the medo-persians?
The 300 spartans withstood the persians or the medo-persians?
Why do a few books in the bible say there was a medo-persian empire, when persia conquered media? Does anyone know of any secular reference to media and persia being a joint empire? A secular reference that is old and more likely to be free of influence from the bible?
anyone?
What if Esther and Daniel (both mention medo-persian empire) were fictions that misunderstood jeremiah, or some other prophet? Jeremiah said that Media would conquer and burn babylon – they didnt, although Persia walked right in and took babylon. Could the authors of esther and daniel assumed Jeremiah was right, but also knew that persia actually took babylon, so they simply assumed there was a union?
“alcohol makes me smarter, or more witty, or more likeable” – I wouldn’t say that, but it sure makes me a better dancer! Everyone said the lampshade was a nice touch —
“But i do think that we make decisions. I do not think that we are forced to act or react in specific ways, even though we are definitely influenced. I think we can train ourselves to view rewards differently. I think we can manipulate our hormonal responses in our brains over time, either buy changing behavior or in helping change behavior.
I could be wrong – wouldn’t be the first time – but i cant help it, you understand, because I had no other choice but to think this and then type it out.
Yes, I agree, we do make decisions and we can retrain our brain. As you probably know, the Navy used intense training for their Seal recruits to wire their brain to bypass the amygdala and head straight for the frontal lobes when making impulse, life or death decisions. Signals of a possible threat reach the amygdala twice as fast as the prefrontal cortex and that’s the cause of most of the mistakes.
But here’s another example about whether we are in charge of our decisions or other factors are. Pheromones. We think we are choosing our mates, but nature is doing it for us. We may not actually have a lot in common with a potential mate, e.g.,our political views or food choices, but nature doesn’t care about that. It’s looking much deeper. Aside from genetic compatibility, even a woman’s views of compatibility change during certain times of the month, ovulation apposed to not ovulating, so she may think she’s in control of her choices, but she’s being driven by other “unseen” factors.
I’m open to the possibility that we have free choice but the more I research, the more I’m convinced that this isn’t the case — that it is an illusion.
“Sociopaths, psychopaths and narcissists target certain personality types — humanitarians — those who tend to be empathic/sympathetic towards the plight of others.” – did anyone but me notice that Kathy zeroed in on William and Howie, who seemed not to hold quite so strong uni-lateral positions as some of the rest of us?
“So a person might think that there is no reward involved but there is, even if a person goes on a hunger strike, protests and gets maced, or dies for another. http://www.pnas.org/content/103/42/15623.full”
(He thought he’d sneak Jesus in on me as a parting shot) Boy, is HE gonna have emails when he gets back!
“I think it’s all of our imgs and gifs. Yes, it’s loading slowly, but I had a good time playing.”
Yeah, mostly the videos — I try to make sure that when using images, the files are small. Still, Nate’s post load slowly most often because of so many comments even when there aren’t that many videos. It’s really a compliment that he has such a “following”. 😉
“Aside from genetic compatibility, even a woman’s views of compatibility change during certain times of the month, ovulation apposed to not ovulating, so she may think she’s in control of her choices, but she’s being driven by other ‘unseen’ factors.”
Any suggestions as to how I can figure out which of those times has someone like me written all over them? Yeah, I know, that would be when her standards are at their lowest, but how can I tell? Just looking to time my move here —
Ruth, in continuing to address your comment, I have had fun, too, and this post has also been exceptionally stimulating for me. I think, when addressing the validity of this Yahweh or any god in other cultures, there are many, many more subjects we can discuss to discount these gods besides what was written in the bible or other “holy” text. One of those light bulb moments I had, during my deconversion, was that I had spent so much time using the bible as a source of “proof”, rather than looking outside of it, then compare notes. Once people start doing that — really delving into science — they are generally going to come up with the same conclusion — they are man-made. I thought this was interesting:
” It’s worth reminding them that if every atheist left, America would lose 85 percent of its scientists (not that the fundamentalists love science) and a fraction of one percent of its federal prison population.”
Good grief William, that was a low blow. I do not look for a man’s bank account. I look at his character. Most of the women I know are the same way. Maybe you are only familiar with immature women.
research shows that people also look at looks. and they also associate success with appearance and income/status. While women may think they prefer character, the character they often prefer looks like a fit rich man.
men do the same.
which is one reason many people feel like they’ve settled when they wed.
and there was a song that said something like, “girls dont like boys, but girls like cars and money.”
and be easy on me, I cant help it remember… oh yeah, you cant either.
This discussion has been far more interesting to me than fighting with you-know-who. To me, free will does tie in with faith and religion, but I suppose some prefer more bible-based discussions. Guess we’ll have to let Nate decide.
Finding Truth 
My question is — if all our motives, choices are reward based, even without our conscious awareness, is that really free will?
We have to have some mechanism for decision making. If you took away any influences at all we’d be a pretty indecisive bunch.
So based on your question I’d say the you and I are operating on different definitions of what freewill is. What is your definition of freewill? Is it this:
the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded by any factors.
I guess my question is: how could there be any exercise freewill if there aren’t any variables?
LikeLike
“the ability of agents to make choices unimpeded by any factors”
For the most part, yes. Nature has to fool us in order for us to be interested in sex (gives dopamine rushes like shooting up heroin), to raise children (oxytocin and vasopressin), to eat, dopamine. So it seems to me that if I have a choice to eat a banana over ice cream, I might get short term benefits from eating the ice cream (more dopamine) but more long term reward for eating the banana, and anticipation of a reward is more rewarding. That might be the variables you are talking about. I guess my point is all variables are rewarding in some way. So is that free will? I personally don’t think free will exists. That’s not to say we don’t make decisions, but they appear to always be based on other factors.
LikeLike
“I plan to go camping this week, so I’ll be away for a few days.”
Hope you have a blast Ryan.
LikeLike
I always took “freewill” to only mean, “the ability to make decisions.” That’s how I’ve always used it. As in, our futures are not set and before the future becomes the past, it is wide open to all possibilities and I am free to lay out my portion of it.
But yes, like with “free society,” we can make the term so literal that it becomes impossible to be true. I don’t mind being wrong on the definition of a term, so I’m cool saying that freewill doesn’t exist. There is no free society – unless we use the term as was intended…
But i do think that we make decisions. I do not think that we are forced to act or react in specific ways, even though we are definitely influenced. I think we can train ourselves to view rewards differently. I think we can manipulate our hormonal responses in our brains over time, either buy changing behavior or in helping change behavior.
I could be wrong – wouldn’t be the first time – but i cant help it, you understand, because I had no other choice but to think this and then type it out.
LikeLike
let’s talk about media and persia.
Alexander the great fought the persiand or the medo-persians?
The 300 spartans withstood the persians or the medo-persians?
Why do a few books in the bible say there was a medo-persian empire, when persia conquered media? Does anyone know of any secular reference to media and persia being a joint empire? A secular reference that is old and more likely to be free of influence from the bible?
anyone?
What if Esther and Daniel (both mention medo-persian empire) were fictions that misunderstood jeremiah, or some other prophet? Jeremiah said that Media would conquer and burn babylon – they didnt, although Persia walked right in and took babylon. Could the authors of esther and daniel assumed Jeremiah was right, but also knew that persia actually took babylon, so they simply assumed there was a union?
or was there actually a union?
LikeLike
William,
I’ve understood or defined freewill much the same as you.
LikeLike
“alcohol makes me smarter, or more witty, or more likeable” – I wouldn’t say that, but it sure makes me a better dancer! Everyone said the lampshade was a nice touch —
LikeLike
Yes, I agree, we do make decisions and we can retrain our brain. As you probably know, the Navy used intense training for their Seal recruits to wire their brain to bypass the amygdala and head straight for the frontal lobes when making impulse, life or death decisions. Signals of a possible threat reach the amygdala twice as fast as the prefrontal cortex and that’s the cause of most of the mistakes.
But here’s another example about whether we are in charge of our decisions or other factors are. Pheromones. We think we are choosing our mates, but nature is doing it for us. We may not actually have a lot in common with a potential mate, e.g.,our political views or food choices, but nature doesn’t care about that. It’s looking much deeper. Aside from genetic compatibility, even a woman’s views of compatibility change during certain times of the month, ovulation apposed to not ovulating, so she may think she’s in control of her choices, but she’s being driven by other “unseen” factors.
I’m open to the possibility that we have free choice but the more I research, the more I’m convinced that this isn’t the case — that it is an illusion.
LikeLike
– I wouldn’t say that, but it sure makes me a better dancer! Everyone said the lampshade was a nice touch
Was it one of those with the fringe around the edge?
LikeLike
“Was it one of those with the fringe around the edge?”
LOL
LikeLike
If William is wanting to change the subject back to the bible again, I’d like to suggest we start another post. This post is loading very slowly.
LikeLike
“Sociopaths, psychopaths and narcissists target certain personality types — humanitarians — those who tend to be empathic/sympathetic towards the plight of others.” – did anyone but me notice that Kathy zeroed in on William and Howie, who seemed not to hold quite so strong uni-lateral positions as some of the rest of us?
LikeLike
If William is wanting to change the subject back to the bible again, I’d like to suggest we start another post. This post is loading very slowly.
I think it’s all of our imgs and gifs. Yes, it’s loading slowly, but I had a good time playing. 😀
LikeLike
“So a person might think that there is no reward involved but there is, even if a person goes on a hunger strike, protests and gets maced, or dies for another. http://www.pnas.org/content/103/42/15623.full”
(He thought he’d sneak Jesus in on me as a parting shot) Boy, is HE gonna have emails when he gets back!
LikeLike
LOL — I saw that tactic.
LikeLike
“I think it’s all of our imgs and gifs. Yes, it’s loading slowly, but I had a good time playing.”
Yeah, mostly the videos — I try to make sure that when using images, the files are small. Still, Nate’s post load slowly most often because of so many comments even when there aren’t that many videos. It’s really a compliment that he has such a “following”. 😉
LikeLike
“Aside from genetic compatibility, even a woman’s views of compatibility change during certain times of the month, ovulation apposed to not ovulating, so she may think she’s in control of her choices, but she’s being driven by other ‘unseen’ factors.”
Any suggestions as to how I can figure out which of those times has someone like me written all over them? Yeah, I know, that would be when her standards are at their lowest, but how can I tell? Just looking to time my move here —
LikeLike
arch, you need a big bank account and if you’re not currently doing squats and situps with regularity – you need to start.
chicks dig that stuff no matter the time.
LikeLike
Ruth, in continuing to address your comment, I have had fun, too, and this post has also been exceptionally stimulating for me. I think, when addressing the validity of this Yahweh or any god in other cultures, there are many, many more subjects we can discuss to discount these gods besides what was written in the bible or other “holy” text. One of those light bulb moments I had, during my deconversion, was that I had spent so much time using the bible as a source of “proof”, rather than looking outside of it, then compare notes. Once people start doing that — really delving into science — they are generally going to come up with the same conclusion — they are man-made. I thought this was interesting:
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/why-atheists-make-85-percent-americas-scientists-and-07-percent-its-prison
LikeLike
“Was it one of those with the fringe around the edge? ” – So you WERE there! I thought I caught just a glimpse through the fringe!
LikeLike
“chicks dig that stuff no matter the time.
Good grief William, that was a low blow. I do not look for a man’s bank account. I look at his character. Most of the women I know are the same way. Maybe you are only familiar with immature women.
LikeLike
Nuero,
research shows that people also look at looks. and they also associate success with appearance and income/status. While women may think they prefer character, the character they often prefer looks like a fit rich man.
men do the same.
which is one reason many people feel like they’ve settled when they wed.
and there was a song that said something like, “girls dont like boys, but girls like cars and money.”
and be easy on me, I cant help it remember… oh yeah, you cant either.
and it was of course a joke.
But seriously arch, it helps.
LikeLike
Yep, men complain about gold diggers but the reality is, a lot of men want a high maintenance piece of arm candy.
I never cared much about those things, but that’s not the norm.
LikeLike
Oh, and William, you forgot credit score. It has to be good.
LikeLike
This discussion has been far more interesting to me than fighting with you-know-who. To me, free will does tie in with faith and religion, but I suppose some prefer more bible-based discussions. Guess we’ll have to let Nate decide.
LikeLike