to say that a person is prideful because they dont just accept the biblical author’s claims of “thus sayeth the Lord” is just like us calling Kathy prideful for not accepting a leading physicists hypothesis as to the origins of the universe.
She can say “but god said,” all she likes – it’s still really “somebody said that god said.”
And we could claim, “but the beginning of the universe is really…” when it may really be “Hawkins Hypothesized such and such was the origins of the universe.”
Fortunately we evolved intellects that allow us to move beyond (even if temporary and fragile) the survival of the fittest governance. But we have further to go. I think the more resources we have and the better we manage them, the more “civilized” we can be.
“Fortunately we evolved intellects that allow us to move beyond (even if temporary and fragile) the survival of the fittest governance. But we have further to go.”
Couldn’t agree more, William. We have to start valuing that which has been devalued for so long. Again, this is evident from observing baboon troops.
Dave, I’m fascinated by this topic and think it’s our future. We’ve constructed this artificial world for ourselves that allow us to live longer by making resources more available and by combating disease, etc. In so doing, we’ve created other problems to solve, like population growth vs farmland and produce, etc – not to mention the everyday pollution from the things we use to live these days.
Yeah, I think we have several hurdles that we need to get past before we can really start expanding to other planets. It would be really interesting to see into the future and find out what inventions become developed to create sustainable energy. Farmland could become irrelevant if food could be grown in multi-level hydroponic structures. All we need is an energy source (nuclear?) to keep the grow lights running.
If fusion power becomes a reality I sometimes wonder if it would be possible to fuse atoms together and then use fission power to break them apart and repeat the process again and again. We would just need to figure out the right types of atoms to use that would not create any wasted atoms. Or if the leftover atoms happened to be oxygen, that would be useful for those of us that breath the stuff.
A billion years from now our descendents might be looking for a younger solar system to colonize since the sun won’t be around forever. Yeah, these are fun things to think about. In the meantime, I think the more population we have the better chances there are for more Einsteins to come around.
I’m the expert here on homosex,
we can’t have Kathy and her god, who never seems to get what he wants anyway,
telling me how many cute guys I can’t marry.
” I think the more population we have the better chances there are for more Einsteins to come around.”
Actually, we don’t need an increase in population so we have better chances of more Einsteins. We need to provide safe, loving, non-toxic stress environments for children and make education a priority. But the more authoritarianism (including the Abrahamic religions) we allow to flourish in our societies, the less likely this will happen.
“If humanity is going to flourish in the next few million years”
A hundred and fifty years ago, here in the US, there were herds of bison that stretched over the horizon, and flocks of Carrier Pigeons blackened the sky. I would not like too see – at the rate we’re going – what the earth will look like in a thousand years, a million is out of the question.
GENESIS . . . last chapter
In the end,
There was Earth, and it was with form and beauty.
And Man dwelt upon the lands of the Earth, among the meadows and the trees, and he said,
“Let us build our dwellings in this place of beauty.”
And he built cities and covered the Earth with concrete and steel.
And the meadows were gone.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the second day, Man looked upon the waters of the Earth.
And Man said, “Let us put our wastes into the waters,
That the dirt will be washed away.”
And Man did.
And the waters became polluted and foul in their smell.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the third day, Man looked upon the forests of the Earth
And saw that they were beautiful.
And Man said, “Let us cut the timber for our homes and grind the wood for our use.”
And Man did.
And the lands became barren and the trees were gone.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the fourth day, Man saw that animals were in abundance
And ran in the fields and played in the sun.
And Man said, “Let us cage these animals for our amusement and kill them for our sport.”
And Man did.
And there were no more animals on the face of the Earth.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the fifth day, Man breathed the sweet air of the Earth.
And Man said, “Let us dispose of our wastes into the air
So the winds might blow them away.”
And Man did.
And the air became filled with the smoke and the fumes could not be blown away.
And the air became heavy with dust, and choked and burned.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the sixth day, Man saw himself, in skins of many colors;
And speaking many tongues and languages, and Man feared.
And that which he feared, he hated.
And Man said, “Let us build great machines of war and destroy these, lest they destroy us.”
And Man built great machines, and the Earth was fired with the rage of great wars.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the seventh day, Man rested from his labors
And the Earth was still,
For Man no longer dwelt upon the Earth.
And it was good.
Kenneth Ross
Reprinted from “The Idaho Wildlife Review”
May/June 1967
Sorry, meant “Passenger Pigeons,” not “Carrier Pigeons” – when you have to come back and explain like this, it ruins a perfectly good rant – much like a door that refuses to slam when you storm out of a room! Not that I’ve ever done that, but I heard about it.
William, I could well be not entirely correct regarding the Mars matter, but if I’m not, please jump in.
As I understand it, the moon has no magnetic field because it has no nickle/iron core, since it didn’t coalesce when the rest of the solar system did, but rather was blasted out of the earth’s upper layers when this planet collided with another, about the size of Mars, and the resulting ejecta ultimately coalesced to become the moon.
Mars, on the other hand – as I understand it – HAS a nickle/iron core, but it’s rotation is too slow to generate a strong enough magnetic field to provide similar services to that planet that earth’s does here. Again, please correct me if that’s in error.
But if correct, it would seem that speeding up the rotation of the planet is the solution. What say you?
This is just my opinion, but, I think that humans have more value than birds and bison. I might be a bit biased since I’m a human and all. But, since we are possibly the only species in the universe to have developed intelligence, I think it’s worthwhile to preserve the human race.
If we can get to the point that we are not dependent on planet Earth and are capable of moving beyond this solar system then I think it would be more important to preserve the human race than it would be to preserve the planet Earth. Until we reach that point I agree we should take care of the planet as much as possible without slowing our scientific advances.
I’m not a tree-hugger. I don’t think we are equal to all other forms of life. There are several species of insects I would gladly wipe off the planet if I had the means. I think mosquitoes would be the first to go.
Actually, we don’t need an increase in population so we have better chances of more Einsteins. We need to provide safe, loving, non-toxic stress environments for children and make education a priority.
Agreed, but I think we need both if possible. I have five kids. Is this bad? I don’t think so because they all have a safe, loving, non-toxic? lol (I did opt to have a radon-remover-device installed in our house), low-stress place to grow up in. Now if I lived in some shack in a desert with no food it would be foolish to have so many kids. One of the five and maybe two happens to be above average smart. Who knows, maybe one of them will come up with a solution to solve cold fusion or perhaps stop the Ebola outbreak.
Dave, neuroscience and child development experts are just scratching the surface with regard to brain plasticity and the environment, but what they are discovering is very encouraging. We have done things just the opposite throughout recorded history, where women were not given access to education and were considered property of men. Children were also property of men and both still are in many cultures today.
But my point is that the more educated a woman and economically advantaged, the greater likelihood her children will be more intelligent. There are studies, and I’ve already mentioned previously that a female who experiences mild chronic stress while pregnant will produce offspring with larger hindbrain (fight or flight) and smaller forebrains (executive functioning — intellectual thinking).
I do not thing women should be having more babies than they are capable of nurturing unless the whole village (so to speak) is in on the raising of these children. The more toxic stress children experience, as well as neglect (lack of loving interaction and stimulation) the greater likelihood their brains will atrophy and succumb to an attachment disorder. So when you live in societies that try to control women and their bodies, you will experience the repercussions — usually war, famine, high crime, increased god belief and religion, greater mental illness, and so on.
We have clear examples of this in orphanages, such as what happened in Romania. The brains of these children were a 3rd smaller than children who were raised in nurturing environments. It’s not enough to just put a roof over their head, clothes on their back and food in their bellies.
If we continue to focus on that which most societies traditionally valued the most and have throughout history, we will most likely go extinct. Now we have extensive studies showing that adverse childhood experiences are the main cause of disease, high risk taking, mental illness and early death in adults. Still, we spend trillions on space exploration and war rather than invest it in our future…our children.
“This is just my opinion, but, I think that humans have more value than birds and bison. I might be a bit biased since I’m a human and all.”
Well, when it’s all paved over, and we’re the only species left on the planet, don’t forget you said that. I’m curious, however, as to exactly how you determine which of our animal species is superfluous.
what has more value depends on the context of the discussion. I dont think anyone is suggesting that humans only care about humans – at least i hope not.
If we can help ourselves and help other species, we should. If we help ourselves at the expense of all else, we find ourselves alone. If we were alone in such a way, people would be as valuable as sand.
We need the resources. we need the trees and animals. if we dont take care of them , then we’re only wasting our livelihood.
“We need the resources. we need the trees and animals. if we dont take care of them , then we’re only wasting our livelihood.”
Agreed. We should respect life, not try to have dominion over the earth and all the species as the bible claims we should. As the evolutionary evidence shows, we are all connected.
Victoria, I agree with everything you wrote except that last sentence, putting war and space exploration side-by-side, ouch!
I’m a big fan of children and investing in education too. I feel like space exploration and scientific exploration in general is one of those things that can “bring us together” working towards a common goal. It helps bridge the divide between countries and races.
Arch, this is just me, but I’d get rid of all insect parasites that spread disease like mosquitoes, ticks, tapeworms, flies etc. C’mon don’t you have a fly swatter in your house? =)
” I dont think anyone is suggesting that humans only care about humans – at least i hope not.”
No, I’m not saying we should cover the planet with humans and make everything else go extinct. Yeah, it depends on the situation. If you had a small lifeboat in a flood and could only rescue some kids or some animals which would you save? We’d all save the kids, right? However, if there was room we by all means should save the animals as well.
“We need the resources. we need the trees and animals. if we dont take care of them , then we’re only wasting our livelihood.”
So they’re only resources to you William? lol, just kidding.
Let’s talk about something really controversial… do cats or dogs make the best pets? I vote for dogs 🙂
“Victoria, I agree with everything you wrote except that last sentence, putting war and space exploration side-by-side, ouch! ”
No need for “ouch”! It’s about priorities, Dave. If you’ve ever been by my blog, you will clearly see my love for understanding our universe. Carl Sagan is one of my heroes. He is sorely missed. But he was also a humanitarian, first, and because of that, it play a huge role in Neil deGrasse Tyson childhood. My point in putting those two together was because those two have traditionally been valued over the well being of children. In other words, trillions were spent on space exploration when those trillions could have been used to prevent enormous suffering and death of children.
I don’t see space exploration as just understanding our universe, but also protecting ourselves from meteor collisions and eventually living on two different planets. So in this sense it could be seen as a pretty important matter. If the dinosaurs were as smart as us and had put a second population on mars they might still be around today.
Do you think the kids in the USA are cheated on school funds that instead went to Nasa or are you suggesting that the funds that went to Nasa should have been spent on shipments of food to Africa?
Finding Truth 
Right, Dave.
to say that a person is prideful because they dont just accept the biblical author’s claims of “thus sayeth the Lord” is just like us calling Kathy prideful for not accepting a leading physicists hypothesis as to the origins of the universe.
She can say “but god said,” all she likes – it’s still really “somebody said that god said.”
And we could claim, “but the beginning of the universe is really…” when it may really be “Hawkins Hypothesized such and such was the origins of the universe.”
LikeLike
good points, nuero. I’m in full agreement.
Fortunately we evolved intellects that allow us to move beyond (even if temporary and fragile) the survival of the fittest governance. But we have further to go. I think the more resources we have and the better we manage them, the more “civilized” we can be.
LikeLike
Meant to write *meat
“Fortunately we evolved intellects that allow us to move beyond (even if temporary and fragile) the survival of the fittest governance. But we have further to go.”
Couldn’t agree more, William. We have to start valuing that which has been devalued for so long. Again, this is evident from observing baboon troops.
LikeLike
Yeah, I think we have several hurdles that we need to get past before we can really start expanding to other planets. It would be really interesting to see into the future and find out what inventions become developed to create sustainable energy. Farmland could become irrelevant if food could be grown in multi-level hydroponic structures. All we need is an energy source (nuclear?) to keep the grow lights running.
If fusion power becomes a reality I sometimes wonder if it would be possible to fuse atoms together and then use fission power to break them apart and repeat the process again and again. We would just need to figure out the right types of atoms to use that would not create any wasted atoms. Or if the leftover atoms happened to be oxygen, that would be useful for those of us that breath the stuff.
A billion years from now our descendents might be looking for a younger solar system to colonize since the sun won’t be around forever. Yeah, these are fun things to think about. In the meantime, I think the more population we have the better chances there are for more Einsteins to come around.
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I like your perpetual nuclear device, dave.
fuse, divide, fuse, divide…
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I’m the expert here on homosex,
we can’t have Kathy and her god, who never seems to get what he wants anyway,
telling me how many cute guys I can’t marry.
LikeLike
” I think the more population we have the better chances there are for more Einsteins to come around.”
Actually, we don’t need an increase in population so we have better chances of more Einsteins. We need to provide safe, loving, non-toxic stress environments for children and make education a priority. But the more authoritarianism (including the Abrahamic religions) we allow to flourish in our societies, the less likely this will happen.
LikeLike
Gliese – well said! – (though I gotta admit that lesbian thing kinda turned me on there a little bit!)
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Arch, why does that not surprise me?
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“If humanity is going to flourish in the next few million years”
A hundred and fifty years ago, here in the US, there were herds of bison that stretched over the horizon, and flocks of Carrier Pigeons blackened the sky. I would not like too see – at the rate we’re going – what the earth will look like in a thousand years, a million is out of the question.
GENESIS . . . last chapter
In the end,
There was Earth, and it was with form and beauty.
And Man dwelt upon the lands of the Earth, among the meadows and the trees, and he said,
“Let us build our dwellings in this place of beauty.”
And he built cities and covered the Earth with concrete and steel.
And the meadows were gone.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the second day, Man looked upon the waters of the Earth.
And Man said, “Let us put our wastes into the waters,
That the dirt will be washed away.”
And Man did.
And the waters became polluted and foul in their smell.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the third day, Man looked upon the forests of the Earth
And saw that they were beautiful.
And Man said, “Let us cut the timber for our homes and grind the wood for our use.”
And Man did.
And the lands became barren and the trees were gone.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the fourth day, Man saw that animals were in abundance
And ran in the fields and played in the sun.
And Man said, “Let us cage these animals for our amusement and kill them for our sport.”
And Man did.
And there were no more animals on the face of the Earth.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the fifth day, Man breathed the sweet air of the Earth.
And Man said, “Let us dispose of our wastes into the air
So the winds might blow them away.”
And Man did.
And the air became filled with the smoke and the fumes could not be blown away.
And the air became heavy with dust, and choked and burned.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the sixth day, Man saw himself, in skins of many colors;
And speaking many tongues and languages, and Man feared.
And that which he feared, he hated.
And Man said, “Let us build great machines of war and destroy these, lest they destroy us.”
And Man built great machines, and the Earth was fired with the rage of great wars.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the seventh day, Man rested from his labors
And the Earth was still,
For Man no longer dwelt upon the Earth.
And it was good.
Kenneth Ross
Reprinted from “The Idaho Wildlife Review”
May/June 1967
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Sorry, meant “Passenger Pigeons,” not “Carrier Pigeons” – when you have to come back and explain like this, it ruins a perfectly good rant – much like a door that refuses to slam when you storm out of a room! Not that I’ve ever done that, but I heard about it.
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Powerful, Arch. I’ve never read that before. I am reminded of this quote by Aldous Huxley:
“That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.”
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William, I could well be not entirely correct regarding the Mars matter, but if I’m not, please jump in.
As I understand it, the moon has no magnetic field because it has no nickle/iron core, since it didn’t coalesce when the rest of the solar system did, but rather was blasted out of the earth’s upper layers when this planet collided with another, about the size of Mars, and the resulting ejecta ultimately coalesced to become the moon.
Mars, on the other hand – as I understand it – HAS a nickle/iron core, but it’s rotation is too slow to generate a strong enough magnetic field to provide similar services to that planet that earth’s does here. Again, please correct me if that’s in error.
But if correct, it would seem that speeding up the rotation of the planet is the solution. What say you?
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Arch, I believe you’re right, but i’m certainly no expert on the subject – I’m too lazy to even google and check it all now…
But i do think you’re correct.
I do believe that given enough time, we’ll (humanity) will figure out a way to make Mars habitable, and I hope we work toward that end.
next, we’ll need warp drive, or some manner to bend space time, in order to move to the goldilocks planets.
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“i’m just trying to appeal to the logic of a religious mind.”
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give it time.
for kathy? doubful. for others? give it time.
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This is just my opinion, but, I think that humans have more value than birds and bison. I might be a bit biased since I’m a human and all. But, since we are possibly the only species in the universe to have developed intelligence, I think it’s worthwhile to preserve the human race.
If we can get to the point that we are not dependent on planet Earth and are capable of moving beyond this solar system then I think it would be more important to preserve the human race than it would be to preserve the planet Earth. Until we reach that point I agree we should take care of the planet as much as possible without slowing our scientific advances.
I’m not a tree-hugger. I don’t think we are equal to all other forms of life. There are several species of insects I would gladly wipe off the planet if I had the means. I think mosquitoes would be the first to go.
Agreed, but I think we need both if possible. I have five kids. Is this bad? I don’t think so because they all have a safe, loving, non-toxic? lol (I did opt to have a radon-remover-device installed in our house), low-stress place to grow up in. Now if I lived in some shack in a desert with no food it would be foolish to have so many kids. One of the five and maybe two happens to be above average smart. Who knows, maybe one of them will come up with a solution to solve cold fusion or perhaps stop the Ebola outbreak.
LikeLike
Dave, neuroscience and child development experts are just scratching the surface with regard to brain plasticity and the environment, but what they are discovering is very encouraging. We have done things just the opposite throughout recorded history, where women were not given access to education and were considered property of men. Children were also property of men and both still are in many cultures today.
But my point is that the more educated a woman and economically advantaged, the greater likelihood her children will be more intelligent. There are studies, and I’ve already mentioned previously that a female who experiences mild chronic stress while pregnant will produce offspring with larger hindbrain (fight or flight) and smaller forebrains (executive functioning — intellectual thinking).
I do not thing women should be having more babies than they are capable of nurturing unless the whole village (so to speak) is in on the raising of these children. The more toxic stress children experience, as well as neglect (lack of loving interaction and stimulation) the greater likelihood their brains will atrophy and succumb to an attachment disorder. So when you live in societies that try to control women and their bodies, you will experience the repercussions — usually war, famine, high crime, increased god belief and religion, greater mental illness, and so on.
We have clear examples of this in orphanages, such as what happened in Romania. The brains of these children were a 3rd smaller than children who were raised in nurturing environments. It’s not enough to just put a roof over their head, clothes on their back and food in their bellies.
If we continue to focus on that which most societies traditionally valued the most and have throughout history, we will most likely go extinct. Now we have extensive studies showing that adverse childhood experiences are the main cause of disease, high risk taking, mental illness and early death in adults. Still, we spend trillions on space exploration and war rather than invest it in our future…our children.
LikeLike
“This is just my opinion, but, I think that humans have more value than birds and bison. I might be a bit biased since I’m a human and all.”
Well, when it’s all paved over, and we’re the only species left on the planet, don’t forget you said that. I’m curious, however, as to exactly how you determine which of our animal species is superfluous.
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what has more value depends on the context of the discussion. I dont think anyone is suggesting that humans only care about humans – at least i hope not.
If we can help ourselves and help other species, we should. If we help ourselves at the expense of all else, we find ourselves alone. If we were alone in such a way, people would be as valuable as sand.
We need the resources. we need the trees and animals. if we dont take care of them , then we’re only wasting our livelihood.
LikeLike
“We need the resources. we need the trees and animals. if we dont take care of them , then we’re only wasting our livelihood.”
Agreed. We should respect life, not try to have dominion over the earth and all the species as the bible claims we should. As the evolutionary evidence shows, we are all connected.
LikeLike
Victoria, I agree with everything you wrote except that last sentence, putting war and space exploration side-by-side, ouch!
I’m a big fan of children and investing in education too. I feel like space exploration and scientific exploration in general is one of those things that can “bring us together” working towards a common goal. It helps bridge the divide between countries and races.
Arch, this is just me, but I’d get rid of all insect parasites that spread disease like mosquitoes, ticks, tapeworms, flies etc. C’mon don’t you have a fly swatter in your house? =)
LikeLike
” I dont think anyone is suggesting that humans only care about humans – at least i hope not.”
No, I’m not saying we should cover the planet with humans and make everything else go extinct. Yeah, it depends on the situation. If you had a small lifeboat in a flood and could only rescue some kids or some animals which would you save? We’d all save the kids, right? However, if there was room we by all means should save the animals as well.
“We need the resources. we need the trees and animals. if we dont take care of them , then we’re only wasting our livelihood.”
So they’re only resources to you William? lol, just kidding.
Let’s talk about something really controversial… do cats or dogs make the best pets? I vote for dogs 🙂
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“Victoria, I agree with everything you wrote except that last sentence, putting war and space exploration side-by-side, ouch! ”
No need for “ouch”! It’s about priorities, Dave. If you’ve ever been by my blog, you will clearly see my love for understanding our universe. Carl Sagan is one of my heroes. He is sorely missed. But he was also a humanitarian, first, and because of that, it play a huge role in Neil deGrasse Tyson childhood. My point in putting those two together was because those two have traditionally been valued over the well being of children. In other words, trillions were spent on space exploration when those trillions could have been used to prevent enormous suffering and death of children.
LikeLike
I don’t see space exploration as just understanding our universe, but also protecting ourselves from meteor collisions and eventually living on two different planets. So in this sense it could be seen as a pretty important matter. If the dinosaurs were as smart as us and had put a second population on mars they might still be around today.
Do you think the kids in the USA are cheated on school funds that instead went to Nasa or are you suggesting that the funds that went to Nasa should have been spent on shipments of food to Africa?
LikeLike