So today marks 8 years that I’ve been doing this blog. That’s a pretty big milestone! I had two posts on November 14, 2006, and I thought it would be fun to repost them here (along with a little commentary).
Here’s the first:
Wish me luck… 🙂
So that was innocuous enough. Now here’s post number 2:
I think 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 best explains the way in which Christ’s gospel was/is a mystery. As vs 18 says:
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
We can see from this passage that God’s plan of salvation makes no sense to those who refuse to believe it, but to those of us who accept it, it’s brilliant! Verse 21 goes on to say:
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
See, because the world is so “wise,” it views the concept of God as foolishness. They have been blinded by their own pretensions. For the Jews and Greeks of the day, it wasn’t that they didn’t believe in the supernatural; it wasn’t that they didn’t believe in deities. Their problem was that they thought they already knew what God would do. The Jews already had a fixed idea of what the Messiah would be, so when Christ appeared and didn’t lead them to victory against the Romans, they refused to accept him. The Greeks didn’t accept Christ because they couldn’t conceive of a god allowing himself to be put to death by his own creation. And because they already had things “figured out,” they missed their chance.
Today, people do the same thing. They would rather put faith in scientific theories that have not been proven. They would rather believe that all of the order we see in our universe (the fragile food chain, vast differences throughout the animal and plant kingdoms, the very specific orbits of planets, etc) was created through a giant explosion (something that, in all practical applications, has only been shown to destroy, not create). Have they been blinded by their own “wisdom?”
Too often, even those who profess to be religious only listen to their own ideas about what God wants. Many times they view the Bible as a collection of stories or suggestions, and not the “wisdom of God that leads to salvation” that 1 Corinthians purports it to be. How is that different from what the Jews and Greeks were condemned for?
Throughout the Bible, passages talk about truth and understanding. I firmly believe that God gave us understanding and intellect for a reason. We are supposed to be able to understand God’s message for us. It’s not supposed to be “mysterious” any longer. It’s not supposed to be some “better felt than told” experience. No, God’s word is supposed to be powerful and undeniable. It’s supposed to move us and touch us in a way that nothing else can. But for it to do that, we have to read it, study it, know it.
It’s a little painful to read through that. I cringe when I read how badly I understood things about evolution and the Big Bang back then, or when I alluded to non-Christians as just being those who “refuse to believe it”. It’s kind of funny, but I was guilty of the same thing I was accusing others of. I thought I had the answers, but I had never taken time to really examine any other point of view.
The one decent thing from the post that serves as a bit of foreshadowing about where I would eventually wind up is the last paragraph. You can see that while I was firmly ensnared in Christianity, I believed that it was not supposed to be utterly mysterious. It was supposed to be consistent and “undeniable.” It took a while, but I finally realized that Christianity just didn’t deliver in that regard.
Anyway, I hope you’ve enjoyed this little jaunt down memory lane. Someone suggested to me recently that I should think about doing this kind of review with more of my old posts. I’ve been considering it… Thoughts?
Finding Truth 
Ark,
Not true. There is the Gospel, there are witnesses and martyrs. It’s a claim WITH evidence. And atheists etc have chosen to reject the claims and the evidence.. which means they’ve rejected the God of the Bible.
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Kathy = broken record. Over and over and over and over and over ….
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Hey Nate,
If you guys ever do get down to South Australia, let me know if you plan to go through Adelaide
and I’ll drive back on the weekend to say hi 🙂
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@Kathy
What a pile of steaming Camel Turds.
There are no witnesses, no contemporary accounts and there is no verifiable evidence for any so-called ‘martyrs’ .
Furthermore, you cannot produce a single scrap of verifiable evidence, so why do you continue to espouse this vacuous diatribe?
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@portal
If you guys ever do get down to South Australia, let me know if you plan to go through Adelaide
Does one still need a criminal record to visit Australia?
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I KNEW you couldn’t stay away for long!
“Does one still need a criminal record to visit Australia?”
In your case, I’m sure your psychiatric discharge would do as well —
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Much of a muchness then? Phew!
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Hi Kathy,
You’re right that the context 1 Cor 14 is talking about order in worship services. However, verse 33 is given as a reason why services should be orderly — that reason is that God is not a god of confusion. So Paul apparently thinks this applies beyond just the worship services context. And we could point to other passages, like Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 6:18, which claim God never lies. So if nothing else, it seems to run against God’s nature to give us a message that isn’t completely accurate or trustworthy.
Regardless, that’ something we actually agree on, so I won’t press it any further.
I’m sorry if you question my sincerity and objectivity — I can’t really help that. But I have most certainly tried to find other explanations for these issues other than their being actual contradictions.
Then please head over to one of these posts and present the reasonable, easy to understand explanations:
https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/contradictions-part-5-out-of-egypt/
https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/contradictions-part-6-jesuss-genealogy/
https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/contradictions-part-7-judas/
https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/contradictions-part-8-the-crucifixion/
No one’s asking them to be exact copies of one another. This is not a difficult issue to understand. If I read a biography of Abraham Lincoln, and it goes into great detail about his childhood, but a different biography skips over that part of his life, does that result in a contradiction? Of course not!
But if I read a biography of Lincoln that says he served as President from 1860 – 1866, and another that says he served from 1861 – 1865, one of them is wrong. It’s hard to see how those differences can be reconciled in any way. And even if they can, there’s nothing wrong with seeing them as contradictions until sufficient evidence is presented to explain them.
That’s where the apologists’ responses fall flat. They explain the different genealogies for Christ any number of different ways. Some say Matthew’s is Joseph’s lineage and Luke’s is Mary’s — some say the opposite. Some apologists say they’re both through Joseph, but one covers a biological lineage while another covers a lineage with levirate marriages. The problem is, there’s no evidence for any of those explanations, which is why different Christians will support different ones.
I try to be fair — there are some passages that skeptics will claim are contradictory, when they’re actually not. But at the same time, there are some passages Christians will claim are “easily explainable” when they simply aren’t. But please, if you think there are fixes for those issues, help yourself to any of those blog posts I listed. I’d be interested to see any evidence you have.
They’re only visible when you really spend time comparing the different versions with one another. This is why so many of us were able to spend years studying the Bible without seeing all the problems. When the various books were being selected, there were no search engines to help them narrow it all down. There were also plenty of apologists then, just as there are now, who attempted to smooth out any apparent issues.
Also, you might be surprised to know that there were attempts to correct some of these problems more officially. In the late 2nd century, Tatian wrote the Diatesseron, which was an effort to combine the 4 gospels into one. He didn’t include the details that would have been contradictory. For instance, he left out both genealogies. And in other stories, where the details couldn’t be reconciled, he just chose one version over another.
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Kathy,
you said,
“Here is another example of you applying the incorrect context to scripture. The surrounding text is clear, this is about order in the church.
I’m not trying to claim that God promotes confusion of scripture. I agree that God wants us to understand and not be confused. But again, you are distorting actual scripture to fit YOUR assumptions about God. There’s a reason I asked for the actual scripture to support your claims/ beliefs. 1 Cor. 14:33 doesn’t support your belief.. what are the others?
It’s important to NOT impose your own views into the actual scripture.” – kATHY
you know, you;re not exactly right here. while the entire context of the passage may be talking about order in the church, it is not improper nor is it incorrect to use “god is not the author of confusion,” in the way that nate did.
You act as if phrases can only exist in the cluster in which they’re presented, but this the case. If nate were talking about the entirety of 1 cor 14, or 1 cor as a whole, then he’d be incorrect, but he didnt.
In fact, by your line of reasoning, you’d be wrong to take chapter 14 and discuss out outside of its broader context withing the book of 1 cor.
The bible says that god is not the author of confusion – well, is that right? 2 different genealogies for jesus isn’t confusing at all. 3 gods but only one god makes perfect sense.
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Kathy’s questions:
“1) 4 different accounts by different people are NOT going to match exactly.. if they did, it would THEN be a valid question of it’s Truth.”
Huh? So stories that align would create questions of their cohesion, while conflicting stories don’t? again, maybe you can clear these few issues up for us:
1a – where were the angles encountered at jesus tomb (please provide scripture)?
1b – where did Mary, Joseph and Jesus go after leaving Bethlehem (please provide scripture)?
1c – what day was jesus crucified on, passover or the day before (please provide scripture)?
1d – during the triumphal entry, how many donkeys did jesus have with him (please provide scripture)
1e – how many people are in the linage of joseph and jesus (please provide scripture)?
“2) If the Gospel is not true, if the Bible is fiction, why would these “contradictions” be included in the Bible? Why wouldn’t they have been “corrected”? Or, why not just one simple story.. instead of 4?”
So you’re saying that these mistakes are too big and too obvious to be real mistakes?
You may have to research a little on how your bible was canonized. A group of people got together and voted on what to include and what to toss out. Some gospels were tossed out and we have the 4 that we have because they got the right number of votes. But your questions are on the right track, now ask, “why should we believe the claims made in the book sand letters?” and ask, “why would a perfect god write a book that even looked like it had errors in it?”
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“You might *think* you are doing the “best” you can but what I’ve been pointing out is that if you claim you can’t do any better, it might be because you are allowing pride and ego to get in the way.. I’m saying/ have been saying that YES, you CAN do better.” – Kathy
Kathy, do you think you can do better at being objective?
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“Much of a muchness then? Phew!”
Quite possibly, in South Africa, that actually means something intelligible. Here? Not so much. Of a muchness.
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Well, being American you must first learn to speak English before you and I can converse on the same level. I can’t keep ‘dumbing down’ everything I write, Y’all.
Besides, Nate seems to cope all right so what’s your problem?
Besides, JFGI for the gods’ sake. Sheesh! Must I do all the work around here?
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“I can’t keep ‘dumbing down’ everything I write – Are you saying that has been a deliberate effort, all these years, just for me? I’m flattered – I always assumed it was just – well, you!
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will Kathy answer the questions, or will she make insulting remarks about liberals and run away as usual?
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SPG, I’m placing my bets on the liberal remarks part.
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Since I started ‘talking’ to you, the pages of my thesaurus of Englishto American has more fingerprints than all those cars you used to nick for joyrides.
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and furthermore,
Kathy just loves to boast (which is a sin, by the way)
about how generous and charitable Christians are, but the facts are:
Kathy never donates or tithes and when she was needing help supplementing her diet,
did she turn to a church? absolutely not, she went straight to the u.s. government to get food stamps.
how is that for being a hypocritical liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Morning Ark,
Does one still need a criminal record to visit Australia?
Yep, and a Striped jumpsuit, 3 Packets of crisps, 4.3 prawns on a barbie, and a drop bear as a hat.
Also some blue shorts… Oh and a small portrait of the Queen to be kept in your left back pocket at all times…in case you happen to meet the pm down the pub.
If you need a hand harnessing a kangaroo to ride about town let me know
🙂
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“Since I started ‘talking’ to you, the pages of my thesaurus of English to American has more fingerprints than all those cars you used to nick for joyrides.”
“USED” to?
So you’re saying that I have contributed significantly to your continuing education! Always glad to be of help to the less fortunate.
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Stay in school – don’t do drugs!
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Arch The only “drugs” we have in Australia are didgeridoos and old mad max videos…
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It wasn’t really about drugs, I was just trying to help Ark with his continuing education.
You did indicate you weren’t far, as the ‘Roo hops, from Adelaide – have you heard about this clown?
http://rolltodisbelieve.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/faking-it/
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Nate,
“You’re right that the context 1 Cor 14 is talking about order in worship services. However, verse 33 is given as a reason why services should be orderly — that reason is that God is not a god of confusion.”
The word “disorder” is used an equal number of times in the list of translations on Bible Hub.. When you look at the surrounding text it’s clear that the “confusion” is a result of disorder. You are attempting to conflate literal disorder with disagreement over meanings / context. It’s not the same thing. Few people would argue about what constitutes disorder. But there are major disagreements over what constitutes confusion of scripture. Again, Christians aren’t confused.
I think this is another example of how you are interpreting meaning and context to fit your belief/ non belief. Just like when you add the word “all” to the Tyre prophecy. It’s not there. And neither is “confusion” in the context you are asserting.
“Some say Matthew’s is Joseph’s lineage and Luke’s is Mary’s — some say the opposite. Some apologists say they’re both through Joseph, but one covers a biological lineage while another covers a lineage with levirate marriages. The problem is, there’s no evidence for any of those explanations, which is why different Christians will support different ones.”
What “evidence” do you require here? ..WHY do you require evidence here?? Why can’t you just accept that any of those could be the correct explanation and move on? There’s no real reason to not do so except that you don’t WANT to. My point is that you have NO evidence to prove it’s false. You have different authors who used different sources and so what they wrote didn’t match, but it’s NOT proof of deception or error, possibilities have been presented to explain the differences… yet you treat it as deception because you don’t have proof it’s not. This reveals your unwillingness to trust God, you aren’t willing to give Him the benefit of the doubt. If you can’t trust Him on these minor details, how can you trust Him to take away your sins?
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“They’re only visible when you really spend time comparing the different versions with one another. This is why so many of us were able to spend years studying the Bible without seeing all the problems. When the various books were being selected, there were no search engines to help them narrow it all down. There were also plenty of apologists then, just as there are now, who attempted to smooth out any apparent issues.”
This just isn’t true Nate. There are some seeming conflicts that I’ve noticed all along. The varied details of the core of Christianity – the resurrection.. are hard to not notice. And that you’re trying to claim the men who dedicated their lives to God and His word didn’t notice these while they were putting together the Bible just isn’t reasonable.
“Also, you might be surprised to know that there were attempts to correct some of these problems more officially. In the late 2nd century, Tatian wrote the Diatesseron, which was an effort to combine the 4 gospels into one. He didn’t include the details that would have been contradictory. For instance, he left out both genealogies. And in other stories, where the details couldn’t be reconciled, he just chose one version over another.”
And that still leaves my question unanswered.. WHY didn’t they accept Tatian’s “corrections”? It’s because they knew they weren’t truly contradictions and they trusted God. And it shows how carefully His word was preserved based on that trust.
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