The other day I started thinking about what would have happened if I had stopped looking critically at Christianity after reading those articles that first made me question the Bible’s legitimacy. What if I had turned from them and decided to never look at anything else that might cause me to doubt my faith? If I had, I’m sure I’d still be a Christian today.
But would that really be good enough? Obviously, the things my faith were built upon weren’t solid enough to withstand scrutiny. So if I had maintained faith only by refusing to investigate my reasons, would that kind of faith be pleasing to God? I think that’s a question believers should consider. If that level of faith is good enough, we’re essentially saying, “oh, if only you hadn’t taken your faith so seriously!” But that seems crazy.
The alternative is that my faith might have been good enough until the day I ran across things that made me doubt. At that point, the only way to remain pleasing to God would be to investigate the claims and come out the other side with a stronger faith. Of course, that’s not how it worked out for me. If God’s real and Christianity’s true, then I think this view makes the most sense. However, it causes problems for those Christians who have refused to look at any evidence that might call their beliefs into question. I’ve had several tell me that they won’t read anything an atheist has written, or don’t want me to point out the passages that I found problematic because they don’t want to lose their faith. How does that make sense? If their faith is worth keeping — if it’s true — then further investigation should only support their beliefs, not call them into question.
I’m not trying to pick on Christians here, we can all be guilty of this from time to time. It’s essentially an extreme case of confirmation bias — one in which we realize we’re being biased and we even think of it as a good thing. In fact, it’s extremely dangerous, and if we feel ourselves thinking along those lines, it should be a red flag. What’s wrong with our current position if we have to hide from information in order to keep it?
And in the end, I’m glad I didn’t stop looking. The journey out wasn’t easy, but I feel like things make so much more sense with my current worldview. Even if I’m still wrong, I’m closer to the truth than I was before, because I’ve learned new information and corrected some past misunderstandings. That can only be a good thing.
Finding Truth 
Or maybe God would have talked to you.
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Stephen,
I noticed your comment and it prompted a few questions in my own mind.
– How would god have talked to him or anyone? An audible voice? voices within his own mind? or would god speak through his own internal dialogue like a thought?
– can you elaborate more on your comment? It’s been a little while since I last read nate’s post, so I am not entirely sure what you mean exactly, or whether your comment was sarcastic or serious…
thanks
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Lately I’ve felt that certain things make more sense with an agnostic/atheist worldview while others tend to look better through a Christian worldview. Where the truth is I’m not quite sure.
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“Lately I’ve felt that certain things make more sense with an agnostic/atheist worldview while others tend to look better through a Christian worldview.”
G’day Matt, I’m interested in your comment here, because that is how I feel, but I find few people who think the same. Most people, whether believers or unbelievers, seem to want to argue that all the evidence points their way. But I believe there is evidence and arguments both ways.
It then remains to decide what to do with that assessment. Some say we must remain agnostic, but I think life is all about making choices despite uncertainty. So when I assess the evidence, I conclude that the matters which support christian theism are more significant (by quite a big amount IMO) than the matters which support atheism, so I remain a christian, But I can understand that others assess the balance differently.
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Yup, we do.
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Thanks unkleE, its been rough journey. I grew up a believer, even attended the same very fundamental church that Nate did for a while. Lately I find more errors in scriptures and other problems than I would like to, however there are still certain things that make more sense to me with God/Jesus still being who the bible claim them to be. My faith has been really shaken lately and I don’t like it at all, but would rather seek the truth than the comfort of a lie.
I’ve always enjoyed your input here and fully intend on spending some time over at your blog reading more of what you have to say.
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Good to hear from you Matt, and congrats on the new baby! Hope you guys are doing okay.
I’m glad UnkleE chimed in, because I think his perspective on things like this is important. He’s right that some people overstate the case for their particular belief set and it’s something to be very mindful of. Obviously, I still think the balance of the evidence points toward there being no god, but I can understand why some don’t see it that way. In particular, I think that things like deism, pantheism, and panentheism make more sense than anything in the “revealed” religions. While there are some things about the depiction of Jesus that I admire, there are other things that I find very problematic. It’s just hard for me to attribute anything in Christianity to the divine. But again… that’s just me. The one thing I feel most certain about is that it’s okay if we don’t figure out the ultimate truth, even though it can be fun to look for it.
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Hi Matt, I can understand it has been “a rough journey”. I am fairly familiar with Nate’s story, so if you went to the same church, I can appreciate some of how it has been for you.
“My faith has been really shaken lately and I don’t like it at all, but would rather seek the truth than the comfort of a lie.”
I don’t see how anyone can really think differently to that. CS Lewis (a great source of wisdom for me) once wrote something to the effect that if truth and God seem to be diverging, follow truth – and you’ll find that was where God was all along.
I have followed a similar path in reviewing my beliefs, but I didn’t face as deep issues as you and Nate because i started from a different place. I wasn’t brought up christian though I was sent to Sunday School (my mum thought it was the right thing), and when I began to follow christianity in my mid teens, it was a more moderate form (no inerrancy, no strong views on evolution, no cult-like features, etc) so reviewing everything and changing quite a lot was never all that threatening – though my wife worried about me a few times!
I have found once I accept that God works on earth generally through fallible human beings, and that the Bible is a very human book, inspired and used for a divine purpose, most of the problems diminish. The biggie is of course evil and suffering, but the biggie’s the other way are the origin and design of the universe, humanity (consciousness, ethics, freewill, etc), Jesus and people’s experiences of God.
Obviously Nate and others here assess those things differently, as he has just said, and as doubtless you know, but there is another way of looking at it!
Best wishes.
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Hope everyone here had a Happy Christmas, and a safe and brilliant New Year.
All the best 🙂
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@Matt.
“Lately I’ve felt that certain things make more sense with an agnostic/atheist worldview while others tend to look better through a Christian worldview.”
In the search for this so-called truth, the religious person inevitable comes up against stuff like this, and contrary to what the likes of William Lane Craig – and unklee – will tell you, cannot be explained away.
http://valerietarico.com/2014/12/30/who-when-why-10-times-the-bible-says-torture-is-ok/
All the best for 2015 . May the path you choose eventually be superstition free. Best of luck.
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Matt, all the best on your journey. As a believer and fellow seeker, I have thought alot about God often over the years. I find despite the mystery I still believe in Christ, and I simply can’t deny that in me. So really for me the question is now how do I respond to this. All the best for the new year.
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Arkenaten,
I agree, there are terrible, hard to fathom things in the bible, particularly in the Old Testament. I struggle with that. I also struggle with things in the NT, for example how the actual bible as we know it was formed, when it was and by whom, seems suspect to me. Also errors in the NT that Nate has mentioned several different times.
However I still think our natural world works together far to well for everything to have began out of some random event and evolution took control.
Still working my thoughts and believes out, nice to have an open place like this to explore and discuss.
Happy New Year, and thanks Nate for hosting this place.
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Matt,
However I still think our natural world works together far to well for everything to have began out of some random event and evolution took control.
I sometimes vacillate between an agnostic/atheistic worldview and a deist worldview. I get where you’re coming from with that. In fact, there are a lot of days I could be classified as a deist because I wonder at how this all got started. Though, to be honest, I’m not sold on fine-tuning. It seems a huge leap to me from there to Yahweh and Jesus, though. It seems a huge leap for me to assign any attributes to a deity. If the most I can say that I might know about a deity is that it started the Universe as we know it I become uncertain that there is such a deity. Especially when I begin to consider that this may not be the only Universe. And when I consider that there might be an unlimited amount of universes. Then I’d say that our Universe and the world we live in could be a matter of random chance. Kind of like winning the lottery.
Just my rambling thoughts. I do that. Ramble, I mean.
Happy New Year to everyone!
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Fine, so be a deist. No atheist can say either way that there is no creator. My own view is that, based on the evidence ( presented) there certainly are no gods as described. And most certainly no man-god as per the biblical gospels – no matter what you have been ( sadly) indoctrinated to believe concerning the ‘evidence’.
When presented with the facts the average christian is either ignorant of where their beliefs actually derive ( re the history of the bible) and are unwilling to conduct serious investigation and begin to face these difficulties with an open and completely honest frame of mind.
Because you know what happens to those that do, don’t you?
You become a ‘Nate’. ( if you are very fortunate, you might get to like Jimi Hendrix as well, but that’s a bonus, don’t count on it)
happy ano novo
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“I also struggle with things in the NT, for example how the actual bible as we know it was formed, when it was and by whom, seems suspect to me.”
Matt, would you like more information on that, because I have several sources to which I could direct you, but I don’t want to inundate you if you have no interest – just say the word —
I don’t try to convince anyone of anything, I just lay the information out there and let them decide for themselves.
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“However I still think our natural world works together far to well for everything to have began out of some random event and evolution took control.”
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I would love more reading material on it, now if I could only find soneone that could get me more time for the study! Seriously share away here or via emai mattpair at Gmail . I know enough about it to be bothered and interested.
I could classify myself currently as a deist who is still attending a Christian church and attempting to practice the religion. Nate was at this point for some while I believe. We had lost touch durring this time and I only know about it from his writings.
Nate thank you for having this place to discus our truth journeyes if you will. As you know finding believers that will try to work these things out with you is very very hard. An open forum like this where differing views are expressed and studied is more valuable than most appreciate. I know it’s been a struggle but we need to find time to hang out, I miss you and the family. Even when we’ve disagreed you’ve been a man with honor and I respect that more than you know.
This is a good new year that I look forward to studying in and growing my beliefs.
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“Even when we’ve disagreed you’ve been a man with honor and I respect that more than you know.” – clearly you do know Nate, as I’ve seen him bend nearly backward to be fair and keep discussions on a civil level. I could say I wish I were more like him, but that wouldn’t be true – I’m much happier being the snarky curmudgeon everyone has come to know and love.
I know you mentioned the NT specifically, Matt, but since your time is limited, let me start you with the OT, and how much of it – especially the first five books – came to be, and then we’ll move on to the NT.
I suggest you learn what you can about the Documentary Hypothesis, and how four separate groups, known as the Yahwist Source, the Elohist Source, the Documentary Source, and the Priestly Source contributed to the writing of all five of the books attributed to Moses, who, if he ever actually existed, never penned a word, as he would have lived a full 250 years before the Jews developed the ability to read and write.
The first source I would recommend for that would be the Bible itself – but not the KJV, as you’ll never hear a word of it there – but rather the Catholic Bible, “The New American Bible.” Despite the fact that Mother Church seems to play “Hide-the-Priest” with pedophiles, it is surprisingly forthcoming as to how, why, when and by whom the Bible was written. For example, in Early Genesis, where Abraham goes to Egypt and works out a lend-lease deal with Pharaoh for his wife, in the late 2000’s BCE, and was rewarded with livestock, including camels, the NAB is quick to point out, in a footnote, that the camel wasn’t domesticated until around 1000 BCE. I’ve never known a Bible to be that honest. In the Preface section to it’s book, the NAB goes into great detail about the four sources who composed those first five books.
The second source I would offer you (only two of many, but you DID mention time constraints) would be the work of Steven Diamattei. I’ve had personal conversations with Steve, and as a biblical scholar, he has made it a life’s project to go through the Bible, verse by verse, and sort out the contradictions, many of which are due to two or more groups writing about the same event, from different perspectives.
You could begin here:
http://contradictionsinthebible.com/studying-the-bible-scientifically-or-objectively/
When you’re ready, get back to me about the NT.
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Sorry, Matt – that was Steven Dimattei, not “Diamattei” – somehow I slipped an “a” in there —
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” … the snarky curmudgeon everyone has come to know and love” — ?????
Who says?
😉
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I thought it was common knowledge —
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belief in the bible due to a vast and complex universe seems strange to me. A belief in a creator or in creators due to a vast and complex universe can make sense to me, though.
The bible comes from men. When people say, “god says… whatever,” what they really mean is, “this book that some guys wrote, say that god said… whatever…”
It’s a book of claims at best. If god did have those men write it, then it’s god’s indirect word, at best.
If we can recognize the good in the bible and if we can recognize the bad in the bible, then maybe we don’t need it as much as we’ve been raised to believe. At some point, after it’s all boiled down, faith in the bible is no better than faith in any other religion. As all can claim theirs is better or unique some how. all can claim martyrs. All can claim longevity. all can claim growth or devout followers, all can claim that their issues are either misunderstandings or rooted in misguided or wayward followers. and all claim that faith is needed.
would a christian expect a muslim to part with the koran if the christian was able to show internal issues within the koran or show that the koran contains historical, logical or scientific errors? If a christian had pointed out such issues withing the koran, would the christian expect a person with a “good and honest heart” to set their past religion aside and recognize it as a false religion?
if so, would the christian be willing to do the same thing?
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“A belief in a creator or in creators due to a vast and complex universe can make sense to me, though.”
Of course, William, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but think it through – you’ve already acknowledged the vastness and complexity of the universe, how would any entity, or even a cadre of such entities, achieve such a creation? And why? To populate a single planet, full of naked apes, running around killing each other?
And no, you and I are not going to get into an argument, I just want to be sure you’ve considered all of the ramifications of your statement, for if you have, you’re free to believe whatever you like without any objection from me, and that includes the Easter Bunny (but I DO wish you’d say something to him about asking that damned Energizer Bunny to dial it back a notch – I would, but I don’t speak Rabbit).
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arch, I agree, I was just saying that I can understand it when people believe in a creator. It’s just that using the universe as the biggest evidence for a creator is still a far cry from the creator the bible speaks of.
I’m saying that if we all agreed that intelligent design was the way to go, it still doesn’t support Christianity or any other religion.
I dont believe in a creator. In some ways i wish i did and I dont even think that there cant be a creator. Whether there’s a creator or not is not something i lose sleep over. I suppose I’m agnostic, with leanings toward atheistic, but I dont get bothered if people if people believe in a deity of sorts; I can see it, even if i dont believe it myself.
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Well, then I obviously misunderstood everything you said.
I DO have a sufficiently open mind (a little crack, anyway) to realize that if there were an ant in my house, it would also disbelieve that anything so vast and complex as an entire house could ever have been created, and would be unable to fathom how such an improbable thing could possibly be accomplished.
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