I was listening to a recent speech that Matt Dillahunty gave in Australia (listen here if you’re interested), and in part of it he brought up the story of the Tower of Babel, found in Genesis 11. It’s a story I’ve thought about several times since leaving Christianity. I don’t recall everything Matt said about it, though I know I’ll be making some of the same points he did. I haven’t been a Christian for about 5 years now, and it’s sometimes hard to imagine that I ever believed stories like this one, though I definitely did. And a number of other conservative Christians do as well.
A few days ago, I asked my wife if she remembered what God was angry about in this story, and she gave the same reason that I thought: God was angry because people were being prideful. In case you’ve forgotten, the crux of the story is that several generations after the flood, mankind was growing numerous, and they all had one common language. They decided to build a tower that would reach Heaven (see how prideful?), so God put a stop to it by confusing their language. This caused the various groups to split up, each person going along with whomever could understand him or her.
However, after looking at the details a bit more, it turns out that my recollection was a bit off. First, the people weren’t actually being prideful at all. Instead of trying to build a tower to Heaven — God’s abode — they were just trying to build a tall one to make it easier to stay in one geographic area:
Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”
— Genesis 11:1-4
The phrase “in the heavens” is just talking about the sky, not the realm of God. For just a moment though, let’s pretend that they really had been trying to reach God with their tower. Why would that be such a bad thing? Doesn’t the Bible repeatedly tell us to seek after God? Furthermore, would they have succeeded? On September 12, 2013, Voyager 1 actually left our solar system. In all those miles, it didn’t bump into Heaven. No earth-based tower would ever run the risk of reaching God’s home. So not only were the people not attempting that, even if they had been it wouldn’t have succeeded, and it actually would have been flattering toward God.
So if God wasn’t angry at them for being prideful, why did he confuse their language and force them apart? The next few verses give us the answer:
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth. And from there the Lord dispersed them over the face of all the earth.
— Genesis 11:5-9
Essentially, God was just being a jerk. He was like a kid stirring up an anthill. I mean, God forbid (literally) that people advance technologically, right? Wouldn’t want them discovering things like the germ theory of disease, after all. And why prevent wars by keeping people within the same culture? Much better, I guess, to create different cultures so mistrust and bigotry can form. Furthermore, if this was such a problem at the time, why hasn’t he stopped us again? We’ve figured out ways to overcome language and culture barriers now. We’ve done so much more than just “build a tall tower.” God’s motivation in this story simply makes no sense at all.
However, if you step back for a moment and stop trying to view this as literal history with an actual god, things become clearer. Imagine living thousands of years ago and trying to make sense of the world around you. You think the world is flat and that the sun revolves around it. You don’t understand the cause of thunder storms, earthquakes, or volcanoes. You can’t imagine how animals and humans got here without some kind of creator. And if there’s a creator, why didn’t he make life easier? Why does he allow disease and starvation? There are so many difficult questions that just have no answer. And so people began to formulate answers as best they could. It’s easy to see that one of those questions may have been “why didn’t God (the gods) give us all the same language?” And so they came up with an answer.
Looking at it from that perspective, it’s much easier to understand how a story like this came to be. These people were dealing with the world as they saw it — and to them, the only reason they could think of for God not wanting everyone to have the same language, is that they would accomplish too much. They had no idea that humanity would one day find a way around that problem, rendering their explanation invalid.
Speaking as someone who grew up believing that stories like this were actual history, I know how easy it is to just go along under that assumption without question, especially if those around us believe as we do. It’s not stupidity; it’s either isolation and ignorance, or it’s stubbornness. We can help the isolated and ignorant by just being available to discuss these things when they come up. And with the Bible, there are plenty of examples to be found.
Finding Truth 
right?
I mean, god wasnt angry at all, was he? so either pagan worship is no big deal to god…
oh right, it’s not mentioned anywhere in the context of gen 11, so it makes zero sense to even discuss it as possibility.
so strange… to make an assertion, stick by that basely assertion, then provide points that shows what a baseless assertion it was, and then continue to stick by it…
stupid and stubborn. how do you keep it up for so long? what’s your secret?
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For some reason, I keep thinking about:
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Unfortunately with no proper ignore functions i do get to see bits of blurbs from Williams posts (oh joy).
By Genesis 11 the sinfulness of man is firmly established. Its an ever present reality on the planet that is the norm. The idea that God gets all upset and angry over every sin or attempted sin men commit is just more babbling nonsense from this “finding truth” crew. LOL its like some of you can’t help but show you really had no biblical knowledge at all much less were ever true christians.
Theres nothing in the text that indicates anger. Prove me wrong. Show it in the text because all we have is this
“5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
Can Nate and the Rubber Stampers (catchy band name eh?) point out this angry tirade Nate tries to paint God being a prick for (The entire actions is clear as day predicated on stopping future action)?
Yeah I know…You can’t. Just like Nate can’t find a single word referring to knowledge there either.
Stamp that rubber…rubber that stamp 😉
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“For some reason, I keep thinking about:”
I can help you decipher your thought processes there Nate. Its subliminal self analysis seeping out to your conscious mind . Its you getting your points slashed to bits but nevertheless pretending like you are presenting any evidence the word (or any related word) for knowledge is anywhere in the text)
😉
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Yeah, I’m sure that’s it 😉
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Once again, you don’t have to prove that nothing can come from nothing to disprove the conservative/traditional Christian tall tale.
Bottom line: There is no good evidence that a dead first century apocalyptic Jewish prophet bodily walked out of his tomb to eat a broiled fish lunch with his former fishing buddies and later levitated into outer space! Period.
The majority of the world’s population doesn’t believe this tall tale is historical fact.
The majority of historians don’t believe that this tall tale is historical fact.
The overwhelming majority of Jewish Bible scholars don’t believe this tall tale is historical fact.
And 1/3 of Christian clergy in the United States and in Britain do not believe that the bodily resurrection of Jesus is historical fact.
Christians such as “Mike” can blabber on about the origin of the universe, but if they can’t prove their resurrected first century zombie story, they are accomplishing absolutely nothing.
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“Yeah, I’m sure that’s it ”
and for the first time in years he’s finally made a tiny step toward….finding truth.
Now you should really try telling the in laws that you are fine with realities existing outside of the present universe because those would be totally natural. You already know how they will respond too from your previous link
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“By Genesis 11 the sinfulness of man is firmly established. Its an ever present reality on the planet that is the norm. The idea that God gets all upset and angry over every sin or attempted sin men commit is just more babbling nonsense from this “finding truth” crew. LOL its like some of you can’t help but show you really had no biblical knowledge at all much less were ever true christians.” – ABlackmansagain
and you know what isnt firmly established in gen 11? pagan worship. not in the tower of babel, nor anywhere else. no reference at all for having any part in the motives for building the tower, or in god’s motives for stopping them. none.
no biblical knowledge? says the guy who adamantly asserts that pagan worship was why god confused the languages at the tower of babel and who says that god isnt angry at pagan worship.
is this a real conversation?
is Ashton Kutcher about to jump out? you’re punking us, right?
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“ziggurats were temples and shrines. claiming that they are not towers associated with the worship of God’s is just assinine.”
Again, “The Mesopotamian ziggurats were not places for public worship or ceremonies. They were believed to be dwelling places for the gods and each city had its own patron god. Only priests were permitted on the ziggurat or in the rooms at its base, and it was their responsibility to care for the gods and attend to their needs. “(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat)
The mountains to the east of Mesopotamia were thought to be where some gods lived (especially celestial deities which appeared to rise up from them). The ziggurat may therefore have been thought of as bringing the home of the gods to the flat plains of Mesopotamia. (http://www.mesopotamia.co.uk/staff/resources/background/bg22/home.html)
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“Christians such as “Mike” can blabber on about the origin of the universe, but if they can’t prove their resurrected first century zombie story, they are accomplishing absolutely nothing.”
If only “Mike” hadn’t indicated that he doesn’t believe Jesus is the creator (or even Messiah) because he rose from the dead this poor rubber stamper would have a point but alas though he has been told before he is just too dense to realize that his point that all believers believe in Jesus because of the resurrection has already been contradicted.
You’ve raised points about Jesus not being the Messiah before that have been shot down and you had no answer. Your not much good beyond the first volley and then you run away. cowardly way to debate or discuss things and I don’t countenance cowards.
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“Again, “The Mesopotamian ziggurats were not places for public worship or ceremonies.”
You can say again as many times as you wish. Your wikipedia limited understanding of worship does not phase me . Worship is any form of service, respect or practice of service to a God
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship
Saying a priest attending to a house where god is believed to resides is not serving, respecting or practicing service his God is AGAIN…….assinine.
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supernatural start.
what now?
it’s all supernatural.
so how do we get to just 1 god?
and then how do you know that 1 god is the god of the bible and that his son is jesus, who then rose from the dead?
I know you wish to ignore this, but backing away cowardly does nothing to help your position. If you dont know, just say you dont know. If it’s a baseless leap base don your hope, then just say so.
it’s okay.
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“Saying a priest attending to a house where god is believed to resides is not serving, respecting or practicing service his God is AGAIN…….assinine.” ABlackmansagain
you know what else is asinine? asserting that gen 11 has anything to do at all with pagan worship.
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“Naturalism refers to nature …” — Mike
Interestingly, one of the definitions for nature is: A causal agent creating and controlling things in the universe. (emphasis mine)
Based on this def (and Christian belief), wouldn’t this “causal agent” be “God?” Thus, God is nature … not “super-nature.”
NOTE TO MIKE: No need to defend your POV on this. I’m just offering some food for thought.
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Dude Seriously.. I see glimpses of your posts from time to time but like I told you days ago. You are on my ignore because you can’t process logic. Your claiming I stated Jesus was the messiah just because he was named Immanuel was a thing of sheer inanity that I need a few days to recover from. Sorry.
I’ll see if you can come out of time out in a few days but not now.
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“Based on this def (and Christian belief), wouldn’t this “causal agent” be “God?” Thus, God is nature … not “super-nature.”
Nan as you correctly pointed out nature is defined as being within this universe. Though God works within this universe theism does no maintain he is limited to it
Thats why theism is right to consider God supernatural while Nate and company trying to claim realities outside of our universe are natural are just dead wrong and obviously dead wrong.
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you’re doing just as a fabulous job of ignoring me as you are making rational sense.
I never said that and jesus was never named immanuel. he was named, “jesus.”
but why keep sidestepping?
show us the verse in Gen 11 where pagan worship was anywhere in the context of the tower of babel. if you’d like to recant, that’s fine too.
And then let’s say the origin was supernatural.
show how that means 1 all powerful god.
then show how that 1 powerful is the god of the bible and that jesus was his son.
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“The Mesopotamian ziggurats were not places for public worship or ceremonies. ” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat)
Mike, “ziggurats were temples and shrines. claiming that they are not towers associated with the worship of God’s is just assinine.”
Okay Mikey, take your blinders off and read what it says again. It says they were not places for PUBLIC worship
wiki goes on to say, “Only priests were permitted on the ziggurat or in the rooms at its base, and it was their responsibility to care for the gods and attend to their needs. ”
Mike, “Saying a priest attending to a house where god is believed to resides is not serving, respecting or practicing service his God is AGAIN…….assinine. Your wikipedia limited understanding of worship does not phase me”
No where does my wiki reference I have pasted say that a Priest did not worship there.
Now go ahead and continue to reveal the ass you are and keep arguing about something that doesn’t exist.
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Christians can babble on about Jesus having fulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament, but telling us that seminary graduates from Christian Bible colleges in Texas and Virginia understand the ancient Hebrew Bible better than every Jewish rabbi and scholar on the planet today, and every Jewish rabbi and scholar who has ever lived, is like the flat-earthers telling us that they know more about the shape of our little planet than every scientist.
It is stupid ignorance, plain and simple.
It is the behavior of a cult. It is the behavior of someone who places faith (baseless superstition) above reason and science. That is why a reasonable person can never win a discussion with these people. They are cultists. They are brainwashed to believe that an ancient middle-eastern deity has given that special insight into the real truth of the universe; a truth that only they and fellow believers can see. This is not the thinking of rational people with whom you can have a rational discussion. This is the thinking of Branch Davidians, of fundamentalist “Jefferies” Mormons, of Heaven’s Gate, of Jim Jones.
Their belief system is madness. And you cannot reason with a mad man.
This is why at some point you have to stop reasoning with these people and just keep telling them over and over: You are mad. You are delusional. You need psychiatric help.
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@ABlacksmanagain
I think you’re saying that the fluctuations are dependent on each other, but I’m saying that the fluctuations are dependent on the necessary laws or conditions. At some point in an explanation for a process we frequently reach a stopping point and end up using a word such as gravity or magnetism to explain why something is happening. Like when scientists describe an electron and say that it’s “spin” is an intrinsic property of the electron. This is what I have in mind when I envision an eternal Multiverse. It’s not empty, it contains particles (perhaps vibrating strings or quarks/antiquarks) and energy. It also has certain intrinsic properties that keeps things dynamic rather than static. It’s not the interaction of these particles that causes the basic dynamics, rather it’s the fundamental properties of the universe that do so. One could say in this scenario that rather than a single first cause, there are an infinite number of “first” causes, all the while still having no “ultimate” initial cause.
I see we are in need of a clear definition of what naturalism is. I don’t want to argue over it. If anything outside of our present universe is “supernatural” then I have no problem with stating that the multiverse theory is a supernatural theory. Perhaps what we need a word for is the absence of deities, non-deism?
The difference being that one says a deity is necessary and the other says the laws are necessary. In both cases we have to assume that something exists and could not have been any other way. As an aside, I don’t think either of these theories can be subjected to odds or probabilities because if either of them are true it could not have been otherwise.
Sorry, I’m pressed for time today, but should be back tomorrow. I am fully aware that I need to justify my reasons for thinking that an infinite past is possible.
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and you know what else? Gen 11 doesnt reference Pagan Worship or Pagan Gods at all. not once. no hint of it anywhere in the context.
is does say why the people built the tower.
and it says why god confused their languages.
nothing had anything to do with pagan worship. literally nothing.
why are we still talking about it?
ah yes, mike keeps it going because he wants to talk about anything except how even if we agree on a supernatural origin, that there is nothing, literally nothing, that then shows there is only one supreme supernatural force that is a god, nor how that god would be the god of the bible.
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“Okay Mikey, take your blinders off and read what it says again. It says they were not places for PUBLIC worship”
and why don’t you take your own big floppy blinders off and read what you previously wrote
“In this case the ziggurats in particular were not Towers of Worship as Mike is claiming about tall buildings but dwelling places for their Gods as there were many of them.”
Do you see anywhere there the word “public” towers of worship? no so if priests worship in the service of their god in ziggurats then Mike is right. They were places of worship. Now go ahead and continue to reveal what an ass you are because you tried and to use WIkipedia to back up your claim that I was wrong in stating they were places of worship.
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My initial post really just dealt with some of the internal issues with the Babel story. But trying to tie it to ziggurats raises other issues. And I’m not saying it wasn’t a ziggurat — it just brings up a whole bunch of other issues.
For instance, Mike keeps saying the Tower of Babel was built for pagan worship, though the Bible doesn’t say that at all. Nor do we have any historical or archaeological evidence for the Tower of Babel — it only comes from the Bible; therefore, what the Bible says about it should probably take precedence.
This story appears in Genesis 11, and in the chapters that precede it, God destroys the world with a flood, because man was wicked. It does not say that they were idolaters or pagans — just that they were evil. Regardless, he wiped those people out and started over with Noah.
Chapter 10 gives the descendants of Noah and talks about the various languages that his descendants spoke. Now maybe chapter 11 is just meant to give a fuller account of how they got those languages, or maybe this is another example of how the later editors put different stories together that weren’t necessarily related. Either way, if we try to take the flood and the tower as literal history, then Noah’s descendants hadn’t yet moved away from their central location. Since they only would have been familiar with Noah’s god, there’s not a great reason to assume that their tower would have been for pagan worship, unless the Bible told us so. But it doesn’t. Instead, chapter 11 indicates that they built their tower to help them all stay in one location.
So now Mike wants to say that the tower must have been for pagan worship, because that’s what ziggurats were used for. Well maybe so. But the Bible doesn’t say it’s a ziggurat… Even if it is, we’re making that connection based on what we know about history. But you know what else history tells us? That people had long been speaking different languages and living in different cultures way before ziggurats were being built for pagan worship. Most creationists place Noah’s flood around 2348 BCE, and the tower of Babel would have been many generations after that. But history and archaeology tell us that many other things happened during that time — not a global flood. Just check out Wiki’s entry on the 24th century BCE, if you’re interested. And why not keep clicking back through the centuries to see what we’ve discovered about civilizations that shouldn’t have been there, according to the Bible?
This story is simply legend, as most people would be able to see if it weren’t stuck in the religious book they happen to adhere to. Not only does the story not make much sense internally, but history and archaeology completely contradict it. And it’s easy to see why people would have had incentive to create such a story, considering the limited amount of information they had available at the time.
I don’t write any of this to convince Mike, or even to discuss it with him. Honestly, that’s just a waste of time. He’ll probably respond to it, but it won’t change anything I’ve just said, so I doubt I’ll bother replying to him. But for any unfortunate individuals who have wandered this far down in the thread, it might be helpful to see this perspective.
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I agree, Gary. You just can’t reason with unreasonable people.
and I am not convinced by the firm and relentless assertions of a moron that his idiotic and ignorant ideas are the most rational – especially when he tries to sidestep the actual issue at every opportunity.
it is madness.
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Wrong again Mikey
Look at my entire comment instead of using half of it.
kcchief1
May 20, 2015 at 10:49 am
“The Mesopotamian ziggurats were not places for public worship or ceremonies. They were believed to be dwelling places for the gods and each city had its own patron god.”
In this case the ziggurats in particular were not Towers of Worship as Mike is claiming about tall buildings but dwelling places for their Gods as there were many of them.
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