I was listening to a recent speech that Matt Dillahunty gave in Australia (listen here if you’re interested), and in part of it he brought up the story of the Tower of Babel, found in Genesis 11. It’s a story I’ve thought about several times since leaving Christianity. I don’t recall everything Matt said about it, though I know I’ll be making some of the same points he did. I haven’t been a Christian for about 5 years now, and it’s sometimes hard to imagine that I ever believed stories like this one, though I definitely did. And a number of other conservative Christians do as well.
A few days ago, I asked my wife if she remembered what God was angry about in this story, and she gave the same reason that I thought: God was angry because people were being prideful. In case you’ve forgotten, the crux of the story is that several generations after the flood, mankind was growing numerous, and they all had one common language. They decided to build a tower that would reach Heaven (see how prideful?), so God put a stop to it by confusing their language. This caused the various groups to split up, each person going along with whomever could understand him or her.
However, after looking at the details a bit more, it turns out that my recollection was a bit off. First, the people weren’t actually being prideful at all. Instead of trying to build a tower to Heaven — God’s abode — they were just trying to build a tall one to make it easier to stay in one geographic area:
Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”
— Genesis 11:1-4
The phrase “in the heavens” is just talking about the sky, not the realm of God. For just a moment though, let’s pretend that they really had been trying to reach God with their tower. Why would that be such a bad thing? Doesn’t the Bible repeatedly tell us to seek after God? Furthermore, would they have succeeded? On September 12, 2013, Voyager 1 actually left our solar system. In all those miles, it didn’t bump into Heaven. No earth-based tower would ever run the risk of reaching God’s home. So not only were the people not attempting that, even if they had been it wouldn’t have succeeded, and it actually would have been flattering toward God.
So if God wasn’t angry at them for being prideful, why did he confuse their language and force them apart? The next few verses give us the answer:
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth. And from there the Lord dispersed them over the face of all the earth.
— Genesis 11:5-9
Essentially, God was just being a jerk. He was like a kid stirring up an anthill. I mean, God forbid (literally) that people advance technologically, right? Wouldn’t want them discovering things like the germ theory of disease, after all. And why prevent wars by keeping people within the same culture? Much better, I guess, to create different cultures so mistrust and bigotry can form. Furthermore, if this was such a problem at the time, why hasn’t he stopped us again? We’ve figured out ways to overcome language and culture barriers now. We’ve done so much more than just “build a tall tower.” God’s motivation in this story simply makes no sense at all.
However, if you step back for a moment and stop trying to view this as literal history with an actual god, things become clearer. Imagine living thousands of years ago and trying to make sense of the world around you. You think the world is flat and that the sun revolves around it. You don’t understand the cause of thunder storms, earthquakes, or volcanoes. You can’t imagine how animals and humans got here without some kind of creator. And if there’s a creator, why didn’t he make life easier? Why does he allow disease and starvation? There are so many difficult questions that just have no answer. And so people began to formulate answers as best they could. It’s easy to see that one of those questions may have been “why didn’t God (the gods) give us all the same language?” And so they came up with an answer.
Looking at it from that perspective, it’s much easier to understand how a story like this came to be. These people were dealing with the world as they saw it — and to them, the only reason they could think of for God not wanting everyone to have the same language, is that they would accomplish too much. They had no idea that humanity would one day find a way around that problem, rendering their explanation invalid.
Speaking as someone who grew up believing that stories like this were actual history, I know how easy it is to just go along under that assumption without question, especially if those around us believe as we do. It’s not stupidity; it’s either isolation and ignorance, or it’s stubbornness. We can help the isolated and ignorant by just being available to discuss these things when they come up. And with the Bible, there are plenty of examples to be found.
Finding Truth 
“I agree, Gary. You just can’t reason with unreasonable people.”
Agreed William and Gary. Why do we give these drive by trolls any time at all ?
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because it’s entertaining and because mike does far more to hurt his own position than we ever could. if an honest person stops by, they’ll see what this is.
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william, you are absolutely correct ! 🙂
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and one other point on the origin of everything:
if the origin must be supernatural, because all the natural processes we’ve ever experienced before cant start themselves, then supernatural origin cant be right because we’ve never seen a supernatural process, but only natural ones.
It’s futile to argue about it. Whether it’s natural or supernatural. neither can be proven. on one hand, we have an infinite number of natural events we witness and zero supernatural events. All the viewable events had some catalyst. That catalyst that we view has always been natural as well.
supernatural could still be the answer, but any way you go, it’s a guess. A pure guess.
but again, even if we all agree it was supernatural, that does nothing to lend any validity to the bible. none. much like there is nothing in gen 11 that alludes to pagan worship. none.
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Being an observer of Mike’s crappola, it never ceases to amaze me how believers will say whatever it takes to “prove” their point. No matter how you approach the discussion, it’s twisted, turned around, then shaken for good measure in an attempt to discredit any facts, opinions, or remarks by those who disagree.
It’s a merry-go-round, that’s for sure. But one good thing about it, you can get off whenever you want. 😉
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I think you’re saying that the fluctuations are dependent on each other, but I’m saying that the fluctuations are dependent on the necessary laws or conditions.”
Its both not either or to me. we already know this at a macro level (and even QM is dependent on mathematically calculated probabilities). A pendulum is swinging to the right because its coming from the left. Its present “swing” is dependent on where it is and the laws determine how it swings.
“At some point in an explanation for a process we frequently reach a stopping point and end up using a word such as gravity or magnetism to explain why something is happening.”
NO problem I get you but gravity and magnetism are going to have effect based on position and time and position and time is going to be relative to previous position and time
“rather it’s the fundamental properties of the universe that do so. ”
and the fundamental properties act within spacetime creating processes we see today. Once you drop that into infinite past age you have the very issues I rose in my previous posts
“One could say in this scenario that rather than a single first cause, there are an infinite number of “first” causes, all the while still having no “ultimate” initial cause.”
I am not crystal clear what you are referring to but are you alluding to quantum fluctuations? If you are that raises other issues so please do clarify as I don’t want to go off into that if thats not what you meant. Suffice to say that once we start invoking QM laws as explanations for the physical world we are invoking laws preceding (or existing without reference to) physical reality and once again come perilously close to theism
“I see we are in need of a clear definition of what naturalism is. I don’t want to argue over it. If anything outside of our present universe is “supernatural” then I have no problem with stating that the multiverse theory is a supernatural theory. Perhaps what we need a word for is the absence of deities, non-deism?”
That would be fine and I do appreciate the honesty on that just as long as we don’t drift back into non-deism or non-theism being a definition of natural
“The difference being that one says a deity is necessary and the other says the laws are necessary.”
Actually there is no practical difference. Not with Juadaism or christianity neither of which expect God’s influence to have any effect on the universe except through law. Now if I am understanding you right a natural consequence of you arguing that it all comes down to law raises a few questions. IF law stands eternal from any physical process – what is law?
Many materialist try to side step that question by claiming that law is just a description of how natural processes work but if you make them eternal that won’t work (in reality it doesn’t for them either)
“In both cases we have to assume that something exists and could not have been any other way. As an aside, I don’t think either of these theories can be subjected to odds or probabilities because if either of them are true it could not have been otherwise.”
Agreed completely on that which makes the whole idea of accident nothing but a human construct. In an infinitely old universe not only is intelligent life not an accident but its occurred an infinite amount of times
“Sorry, I’m pressed for time today, but should be back tomorrow.”
No problem. totally understand.
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and that “merry-go-round” is obvious to everyone. no one is fooled into thinking it’s a ride on an escalator.
sure, i could step off. But this train wreck is too fascinating to turn away from.
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“Actually there is no practical difference. Not with Juadaism or christianity neither of which expect God’s influence to have any effect on the universe except through law.” – ABlackmansagain
really? I am mulling this over. what natural laws allowed jesus to walk on water or raise from the dead or ascend into heaven?
what natural laws allowed the bush to be on fire but not burn up?
these appear to happen contrary to natural law, not because of it.
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The Five Minimal Facts proving that a Ghost shot President Kennedy
Have you heard of Christian apologist Gary Habermas’ Five Minimal Facts that Prove the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth was a Historical Fact? Well, here is my Five Minimal Facts regarding the Kennedy Assassination using the same logic:
Number 1: John F. Kennedy Died By Gun Shot to the Head.
Number 2: Video Evidence shows Gun Smoke coming from the Grassy Knoll.
Number 3 : Twelve Eyewitnesses say they saw something like a Ghost rapidly moving away from the Grassy Knoll after the Shots were Fired.
Number 4: A Forensics expert and life-long, Kennedy-hating Republican Senator Converted to the Second Gunmen Theory based on an appearance to him by a ghost on a deserted highway to Mexico City three years after the assassination who said that he/it was the second gunman.
Number 5: Teddy Kennedy, brother of John Kennedy, and originally a skeptic of the Second Gunman Theory, converted to the Second Gunmen Theory based On What He Believed Was An Appearance to him of the same Ghost.
Conclusion: The most reasonable explanation for the five minimal facts above is that a ghost was the second gunmen in the Kennedy Assassination!
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and then what natural laws let the sun stand still, and then later move backward?
or turned water into wine?
I dont see natural laws in work here. can you explain?
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nate, maybe a new thread on origins and how god only operates in laws is in order?
we’ve come way off topic from the tower of babel, talking about absolute origins, naturalism and pagan worship. pagan worship not being mentioned or even hinted at in the biblical context of the tower of babel story.
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“For instance, Mike keeps saying the Tower of Babel was built for pagan worship, though the Bible doesn’t say that at all. Nor do we have any historical or archaeological evidence for the Tower of Babel — it only comes from the Bible; therefore, what the Bible says about it should probably take precedence.”
Well its an extremely likely scenario. I wouldn’t swear on a Bible 🙂 that it had to be but it beats the socks of what you tried to float because it has all kinds of context. and sorry we don’t need a tower of Babel to know historically that towers were built for just that purpose. Your own rubberstampers have pretty much inadvertently shown that
” it just brings up a whole bunch of other issues.”
Nate’s code words for a whole lot of conjecture and garbage he is about to try and float in order to save face that he can’t find a single word in the text that shows its about technological advances (but still obstinately,ignorantly and dishonestly as the day is old claims its proven by the text itself) 🙂
“This story appears in Genesis 11, and in the chapters that precede it, God destroys the world with a flood, because man was wicked. It does not say that they were idolaters or pagans — just that they were evil. ”
lol….Classic nate . here he tries for the setup. As if Evil precludes or leaves out the concept of Idolatry so he can make his next erroneous step seem reasonable . Problem (for him) is there is no such exclusion. the text he leaves out says that all sin was in view which would include idolatry
“The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.”
whats that? every inclination of thought is evil all of the time. That would include thoughts about God and who he is and who they should worship. It fully includes idolatry and paganism. Is Nate’s exclusion therefore supported? Of course not. SInce its every inclination it would be ALL manner of sin including paganism and idolatry
Set up….with an EPIC fail
“Since they only would have been familiar with Noah’s god, there’s not a great reason to assume that their tower would have been for pagan worship, unless the Bible told us so. But it doesn’t.”
HIs setup failed to include the verse that shows that idolatry could not be excluded and was part and parcel so his conclusion flops. Since there is no record anywhere that worship to the true god needs a tall building Nate can be dismissed for yet more rank foolishness and intellectual dishonesty
this is classicly what Nate claims are serious issues he is raising and his rubber stampers will bet the house support him on it (thats what the blog is really all about anyway. Church rejects (self or otherwise) finding each other in the cold environs of the net and trying to pretend they enjoy majority status in the populace.)
“So now Mike wants to say that the tower must have been for pagan worship, because that’s what ziggurats were used for. Well maybe so. But the Bible doesn’t say it’s a ziggurat”
Actually Mike didn’t bring up the term ziggurats his stamper KK did. Mike talks about high places and worship which is a found throughout the entire OT and such high places being used
“… Even if it is, we’re making that connection based on what we know about history. But you know what else history tells us?”
Curiousity is peaked .Surely this will clarify why Nate can’t answer where knowledge in his proof text is found? Will history tell us that the people were dispersed because God wanted to stop them from technological advances? Nope. Will history tells us that God was an angry PRick on that day? Nope
Appealing to history will not answer any of those issues he refuses to admit to being wrong on but instead this dishonest soul is not only not going to address that issue he is now going to try and handwave off to another issue to save face and his tremendous ego that always finds himself right and his inlaws wrong. Now rather than him being honest that he has found nothing that his piece stated about technological advances he will try and make it all about the long winded debate about creationist dating which I have no need to have allegiance to being no Ussher follower
Sigh such an intellectual dishonest ploy…….More to come….
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“Well its an extremely likely scenario. I wouldn’t swear on a Bible 🙂 that it had to be” – ABlacksmanagain
it takes a big man to admit he’s wrong. I forgive you. I guess you could say it’s likely, just like anything else someone makes up about it is just as likely.
” but it beats the socks of what you tried to float because it has all kinds of context.” – ABlackmansagain
except you’re wrong. what you suggest is nowhere in the context, while what nate said was. What you say is taken from secular history which shows the tower of babel story to be a myth, and you get it from worshiping on high places elsewhere in the bible, except those high places were mountains and hills and happened much later than the tower of babel.
pagan worship in the tower of babel just isnt there. I strongly encourage you to actually read the tower of babel story in Genesis 11. it’s a silly story, and nowhere will you find any reference to pagan worship. none. not any. not even some. “less than zero” is a more accurate summation that saying “some.”
it is literaly, nowhere in the text. yet you insist it is implied. at least you’ve back-peddled some, finally, by reducing your previous certainty to “likely”. It’s a glimpse at good character. see nan, maybe we’re finally rubbing off on him.
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“Nate’s code words for a whole lot of conjecture and garbage he is about to try and float in order to save face that he can’t find a single word in the text that shows its about technological advances (but still obstinately,ignorantly and dishonestly as the day is old claims its proven by the text itself) :)” – ABlacksmanagain
you know what else is pure conjecture and not found anywhere in the context of the tower of babel story? pagan worship.
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.”Most creationists place Noah’s flood around 2348 BCE, and the tower of Babel would have been many generations after that. ”
Most ussher Creationists. Stop pretending that Usher is some universal accepted to Christianity and judaism issue and therefore “raises issues”. There no date in the text (MIke sits with widened eyes…given its Nate he just might claim that’s in there too…rofl )
“But history and archaeology tell us that many other things happened during that time — not a global flood.”
Poor Nate. He forgot my position. I find the BIBLICAL evidence weak for saying earth is the whole planet
” Just check out Wiki’s entry on the 24th century BCE, if you’re interested. And why not keep clicking back through the centuries to see what we’ve discovered about civilizations that shouldn’t have been there, according to the Bible?”
Do tell so other places in the Bible have dates? But before we get tohose passages with dates
Any hope i can get you to point out where technology or even knowledge appears in your proof teXt?
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city.
Gen 11:5-6
You are dishonest to the bone. To claim context that its in there would be one thing but to actually present a text as proof that its about technological advancement when there is not a single thing in the entire text is just blatant dishonesty.
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“whats that? every inclination of thought is evil all of the time. That would include thoughts about God and who he is and who they should worship. It fully includes idolatry and paganism. Is Nate’s exclusion therefore supported? Of course not. SInce its every inclination it would be ALL manner of sin including paganism and idolatry
Set up….with an EPIC fail” – ABlacksmanagain
except you’re talking about before the flood and the tower of babel takes place after that, after all the wicked were destroyed in the flood…
but what is a failure is trying to maintain that god confused the languages in the tower of babel story due to pagan worship in the tower. it is quite literally, not there at all, while other reasons are.
all this arguing over an imaginary issue you’re trying to insist has something to do in a made up story. it’s just not there. no matter how many times you say it, it’s still not there. just isnt.
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I’ve already made my points, Mike. And I can’t see that you’ve addressed any of them. If anyone more objective feels like he’s made a point that I should respond to (even if you’re reading this at some future date), let me know and I’ll be happy to address it.
Oh, wait… there is one thing I wanted to address just for clarity:
After talking about the evil in Noah’s day, I then made this statement:
In other words, whether idolatry and paganism were things that were being done in Noah’s time or not, God wiped those people out and started over. So it’s rather moot.
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Oops, just saw Mike’s latest comment.
Mike, if you don’t accept the 2348 BCE dating of the flood (which is taken by counting up the various ages given in genealogies, for those of you playing at home), then feel free to give whatever timeline you happen to hold to, as well as how you come by it. Or perhaps you’d like to explain why you don’t accept timelines by Ussher and guys like him?
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I just thought of something …
If sin was sent into the world via A&E, but then God sent the flood to wipe out the wickedness/sin in the world, why do we still have sin?
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“Most ussher Creationists. Stop pretending that Usher is some universal accepted to Christianity and judaism issue and therefore “raises issues”. There no date in the text” – ABlacksmanagain
well, there is the genealogies. I agree it’s all bogus, but this is where many fundamental creationist get their timeline. though i’m sure you know that, you just must refute it now because it doesnt suit your needs, because you’re not interested in honest dialogue, but only in scoring imaginary points on an imaginary scoreboard, so that you can reassure yourself of some sorrt of personal victories in an otherwise dismal existence.
you should know you’re not worthless. we care about you. you’re always welcome here.
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“You are dishonest to the bone. To claim context that its in there would be one thing but to actually present a text as proof that its about technological advancement when there is not a single thing in the entire text is just blatant dishonesty.” – ABlacksmanagain
you know what else is dishonest? saying that pagan worship had anything to do with the tower of babel story when there is not a single thing in the entire text to validate that claim.
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And this is how it goes with Mike. The less substantial his point, the louder he gets about everyone else being dishonest. It’s so ironic, because to continue with some of his claims, it’s actually him that’s being dishonest… or he’s just stupid. I don’t know which it is, but it’s definitely one of them. That’s why so much of this becomes pointless.
The only conversation he’s currently engaged in that isn’t dripping with vitriol is the one with Dave. It’s almost like it’s an entirely different person… So maybe dishonest and stupid aren’t the only explanations? Maybe he has a personality disorder?
Well, don’t go too far… 🙂
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@Nan,
I guess ’cause Noah got drunk and screwed everything up. Or Ham did.
As soon as it happened, I’m sure God said “Me-damn it!”
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And he would have said it with just this tone:
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Sounds like Blacksman-mail to me.
“I am posting on your blog again because you couldn’t live up to a simple gentleman’s agreement not to have mention or conversations about me in my absence” – I have no idea why anyone would make such an agreement with him in the first place, or why he should have the audacity to think he can make demands of ANYone!
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