I was listening to a recent speech that Matt Dillahunty gave in Australia (listen here if you’re interested), and in part of it he brought up the story of the Tower of Babel, found in Genesis 11. It’s a story I’ve thought about several times since leaving Christianity. I don’t recall everything Matt said about it, though I know I’ll be making some of the same points he did. I haven’t been a Christian for about 5 years now, and it’s sometimes hard to imagine that I ever believed stories like this one, though I definitely did. And a number of other conservative Christians do as well.
A few days ago, I asked my wife if she remembered what God was angry about in this story, and she gave the same reason that I thought: God was angry because people were being prideful. In case you’ve forgotten, the crux of the story is that several generations after the flood, mankind was growing numerous, and they all had one common language. They decided to build a tower that would reach Heaven (see how prideful?), so God put a stop to it by confusing their language. This caused the various groups to split up, each person going along with whomever could understand him or her.
However, after looking at the details a bit more, it turns out that my recollection was a bit off. First, the people weren’t actually being prideful at all. Instead of trying to build a tower to Heaven — God’s abode — they were just trying to build a tall one to make it easier to stay in one geographic area:
Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”
— Genesis 11:1-4
The phrase “in the heavens” is just talking about the sky, not the realm of God. For just a moment though, let’s pretend that they really had been trying to reach God with their tower. Why would that be such a bad thing? Doesn’t the Bible repeatedly tell us to seek after God? Furthermore, would they have succeeded? On September 12, 2013, Voyager 1 actually left our solar system. In all those miles, it didn’t bump into Heaven. No earth-based tower would ever run the risk of reaching God’s home. So not only were the people not attempting that, even if they had been it wouldn’t have succeeded, and it actually would have been flattering toward God.
So if God wasn’t angry at them for being prideful, why did he confuse their language and force them apart? The next few verses give us the answer:
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth. And from there the Lord dispersed them over the face of all the earth.
— Genesis 11:5-9
Essentially, God was just being a jerk. He was like a kid stirring up an anthill. I mean, God forbid (literally) that people advance technologically, right? Wouldn’t want them discovering things like the germ theory of disease, after all. And why prevent wars by keeping people within the same culture? Much better, I guess, to create different cultures so mistrust and bigotry can form. Furthermore, if this was such a problem at the time, why hasn’t he stopped us again? We’ve figured out ways to overcome language and culture barriers now. We’ve done so much more than just “build a tall tower.” God’s motivation in this story simply makes no sense at all.
However, if you step back for a moment and stop trying to view this as literal history with an actual god, things become clearer. Imagine living thousands of years ago and trying to make sense of the world around you. You think the world is flat and that the sun revolves around it. You don’t understand the cause of thunder storms, earthquakes, or volcanoes. You can’t imagine how animals and humans got here without some kind of creator. And if there’s a creator, why didn’t he make life easier? Why does he allow disease and starvation? There are so many difficult questions that just have no answer. And so people began to formulate answers as best they could. It’s easy to see that one of those questions may have been “why didn’t God (the gods) give us all the same language?” And so they came up with an answer.
Looking at it from that perspective, it’s much easier to understand how a story like this came to be. These people were dealing with the world as they saw it — and to them, the only reason they could think of for God not wanting everyone to have the same language, is that they would accomplish too much. They had no idea that humanity would one day find a way around that problem, rendering their explanation invalid.
Speaking as someone who grew up believing that stories like this were actual history, I know how easy it is to just go along under that assumption without question, especially if those around us believe as we do. It’s not stupidity; it’s either isolation and ignorance, or it’s stubbornness. We can help the isolated and ignorant by just being available to discuss these things when they come up. And with the Bible, there are plenty of examples to be found.
Finding Truth 
“I’ve seen and experienced miracles, which is why I am stubborn in insisting on the real existence of God and the Devil.”
Yes, boys and girls, Crown has had a dove fly into his face and seen dead animals come back to life – but you can trust him, he’s a lawyer —
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That’s right, Archaeopteryx, I have broken my neck and been paralyzed, and healed. I have been grabbed out of the air by God and spoken to. I’ve been pushed into the black abyss and seen a gate of the City of God, far above. I’ve felt the heat of Gehenna beneath my feet. I’ve had the Holy Dove fly into my face and disappear into my head, knocking me down and driving off a visible demon. I’ve had a dead lizard and a dead mouse come back to life in my hands. I have experienced many miracles and visions. That is all true.
And you’re right, you can trust me, not because I’m a lawyer, but because lying is a sin, and given that I know God directly, I’m not going to start committing one of the sins on his list of things that will cause him to finally reject me. I’ve been given a taste of that rejection once, in the black abyss. I never intend to return.
I’m an anonymous person who found a website called “Finding Truth” once upon a time because I Googled “Proof of God Through Miracle”. I was looking to find people who had experienced miracles, like me, to discuss and compare notes.
Well, I only found one, and not here. And his experiences merely confirmed within him everything that he already believed. Because I think about God differently than he does, he doesn’t like to converse much with me.
Knowledge that there exists at least one invisible being capable of reading my thoughts and manipulating my physical body caused me to go seeking such information as I could about God. God and I spoke about Physics. We didn’t talk about Scripture. So I read lots of Scriptures, of lots of different cultures. They all, including the Bible, seem like legends and myths.
But I sought out miracles – third party, physical miracles, to corroborate my own and thereby confirm to myself that I’m not simply a madman. There are such miracles. We’ve discussed them on another thread. What those miracles all have in common is that they are Christian, and almost all of them are specifically Catholic. So, there’s my answer: proof by miracle, and there’s the reason why I focused on Catholicism.
That’s all true. It is about those truths that I would like to have a discussion with William, But I don’t want to do it HERE. The problem with THIS site is that a bunch of ex-Protestants, full of that particular religion’s theories and idols, have rejected religion in general because their own preposterous idolatry failed. But instead of seeking truth without prejudice, they put God to the test by making him not only conform to what is agreeable to them, but also what would be agreeable to their former religion.
It is very unpleasant for someone like me, who actually has some ANSWERS to some of the questions some of you pose, to come to a place like this and try to have a discussion. People like you MAKE it unpleasant – you don’t want to hear what I have to say. What I have experienced and have to say means that what you believe is totally wrong, and you don’t want to hear that or think about it, so you attack ME.
I went away from the other thread thanks to a couple of you. The latest thread popped up in my mail, I read it and ventured a comment. But you’re back, rarin’ to go, rarin’ to tear into my character and sanity because I say things that you don’t believe are possible. Therefore, I must be a liar. That is your logic. You don’t realize that you are a profoundly ignorant and stupid man.
You are ignorant of the things that I know. You don’t know them. You have not experienced miracles. You do not know.
You are stupid because you think you DO know – that they don’t exist, and that therefore somebody, such as me, who says they do through personal experience, is a liar or crazy. You’re wrong on both counts. I’m telling the truth. And I am not crazy.
But you’re supremely arrogant and belligerent about it, really “IN MY FACE”, And lost souls who feel the same way flock together and bray insults at me in arrogant, ignorant stupidity when I speak.
Ignorant, because you don’t know. Stupid, because you think you DO know and because you block your ears and your minds to anything that doesn’t fit your ignorant narrative – like a bunch of atheistic Muslims – and arrogant because you are confident enough in your ignorant stupidity to go attack anybody who says different, like me.
Even though I know what I am talking about and telling the truth.
And you wonder why God never talks to you.
He doesn’t do parlor tricks. He certainly doesn’t do them to convince some MAN that he doesn’t particularly like anyway. He doesn’t like men who abuse his messengers. I gave you no cause to abuse me other than to tell you the truth. You’re exactly like the Jews who killed Jesus, you know: proud, arrogant, stupid, blind and stubborn.
But you win.
You win.
Talking in a forum where people like you hang out is as pleasant as a root canal.
You win. You’ve shouted me down. I don’t need to put up with abuse for telling the truth.
You win. Your little Shrek-swamp of ignorance and bigotry is preserved – your very own chasse-gardee, until of course your heart gives out, your spirit leaves your body, your flesh falls to dirt and you go on and find out a truth you’d heard about all along. You can take it up with them. I wasn’t sent to save you. I wasn’t sent at all. I came here to talk. You make it worthless for me to waste my time here.
You win.
William…well, he loses. Maybe his mind was open. Maybe he wanted a dialogue about things he has not seen and doesn’t understand. Maybe he wanted to hear something new and think about it.
You have successfully guarded the gate of “Finding Truth”, to make certain that nobody who might bring a truth that a belligerent idiot like you does not want to hear gets through without getting vomited and shit upon.
Who needs it? William, maybe. Nate, maybe.
Not you.
I certainly don’t.
And you chose for all of them.
Now enjoy your echo chamber with your friends.
And cast execrations at me as I go. It will make you feel better, jackass.
There, that made ME feel better.
Now I’m gone.
I get the last word.
Rage away. I won’t see it.
Sorry, William, you might have learned something. Maybe God will send you an angel someday to help you square it away.
But you’ll never find one HERE, because the gates are guarded against them.
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No, you’re not emotionally disturbed – not at all —
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@Crown
I have broken my neck and been paralyzed, and healed. I have been grabbed out of the air by God and spoken to. I’ve been pushed into the black abyss and seen a gate of the City of God, far above. I’ve felt the heat of Gehenna beneath my feet. I’ve had the Holy Dove fly into my face and disappear into my head, knocking me down and driving off a visible demon. I’ve had a dead lizard and a dead mouse come back to life in my hands. I have experienced many miracles and visions. That is all true.
I don’t think anybody doubts your sincerity on this. Unfortunately I can also name sincere bomohs, hindus, taoists, buddhists, muslims and many other religious people that have the same claims as you. Btw, the concept of hell is not a christian/catholic exclusive, neither is miracle claims.
So yes, you believe in what you saw, they believe in what they saw. So who wins? Your God wins by default, because He say so?
And seriously, get a grip on yourself, the last post by you sounds like a crazy meltdown. You are better than that, your God demands you to be better than that, the indwelling holy spirit within you enables you to be better than that.
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Anyway, doubt that Crown will read this since I do not reply directly from email threads.
So yes, he can have his last word.
That being said – anybody doubting his claims of being a lawyer now? I have actual lawyer friends (and please trust me because everything you read on the internet is true) and the barbs that they throw in court is even more scathing than what Ark and Arch can throw.
I honestly don’t understand the crazy meltdown.
Then again I’m not a crazy m******f****r that gets upset because people don’t believe in my god and want to argue/debate me – in an atheist blog no less.
“This is madness.”
“Madness?”
“THIS IS RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
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“That’s right, Archaeopteryx, I have broken my neck and been paralyzed, and healed. I have been grabbed out of the air by God and spoken to. I’ve been pushed into the black abyss and seen a gate of the City of God, far above. I’ve felt the heat of Gehenna beneath my feet. I’ve had the Holy Dove fly into my face and disappear into my head, knocking me down and driving off a visible demon. I’ve had a dead lizard and a dead mouse come back to life in my hands. I have experienced many miracles and visions. That is all true.
And you’re right, you can trust me, not because I’m a lawyer, but because lying is a sin, ”
I wonder if Crown does full disclosure of these facts to potential clients before he represents them in a court of law ?
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“…the barbs that they throw in court is even more scathing than what Ark and Arch can throw.”
Powell, you wound us to the quick. Ark – show him your quick!
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“I wonder if Crown does full disclosure of these facts to potential clients before he represents them in a court of law?” – Likely not, KC, just as Brandon doesn’t tell his patients that he’s a batshit crazy porn addict.
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@Arch
wait what?
Brandon is a doctor?
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Nice guys. Real nice. I wanted to see where he was going with that and you had to do your thing. Arch, you remember when I said on one of Nan’s threads how just once I’d like to log into an Atheist blog and see you guy disagree? This wasn’t it!
Anyway. let me add something of merit while I’m here. I always viewed the story of Babel as more of a character lesson for us as people. I’ma gonna paraphrase this, KJV says they are unified and look what they have accomplished. If they can do this then they can do anything.
I always took this as a lesson to look at what we accomplish when we are unified. Nazi Germany came to mind.
In closing, I’d like to say, you guys suck.
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@hayden
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Hey Powell… which part?
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@hayden
Lol nvm.
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Joking or serious? Where have I heard that before. 🙄
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Powell, RE: “Brandon is a doctor?”
Oh yes, I thought everyone knew – he has bragged that, much like Dr. Frankenstein, he has held a human brain in his hands – his own, I can only presume.
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Nice of you to pop in, Hayden, but why do you sound like you got up on the wrong side of the floor?
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Cause YO – MAMA was… Oh wait. Wrong forum…
I wanted to hear what the kid had to say. You just assumed he was a liar for all of us. So now I’ll NEVER know.
BTW, I never got to thank you for smoothing things over for me on Zoe’s blog. I do actually appreciate that. I didn’t mean t upset her and when I did I felt it best to just shut up so I couldn’t make it worse. Thank you Arch.
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I tried to explain that you were an acquired taste, to be taken in very small doses.
“I wanted to hear what the kid had to say. You just assumed he was a liar for all of us. So now I’ll NEVER know.”
Are you referring to Crown? There are a number of Nate’s posts that he has rambled on about his “miracles” of having a bird fly into his face and dead rats coming back to life. I’m sure you can find them. Besides, I didn’t tell him to leave, but I’ll admit I did rather enjoy his “Charlie Sheen” imitation.
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if I saw dead things becomes alive again and had a broken neck suddenly healed, I’d likely find that very convincing of whatever it was i thought was doing those things.
But I’d also understand people’s skepticism if I told them about it.
prophecies and miracles would be quite compelling – to the people who witness them.
I was a protestant of sorts, but i wasnt an idolater. I viewed the bible as inerrant, but not because it was my idol, but because it was supposed to be a message from god; the one true, perfect god.
maybe there is still a god or gods in some fashion, but other than existence (if this is even good evidence) , I haven’t really seen evidence for any – but what i am sure about is that the god of the bible is fictitious and that accounts and stories of miracles are not on the same level as witnessing miracles.
and sending someone a sign? why not just appear to the person you want to contact and speak to them? why, instead, corporate in some “sign” that could be interpreted a number of ways or even attributed to a number of things? why not just appear to them in a convincing way and say, “I am this specific god, here’s how you can be sure, and here’s what i want you to do…”
Crown, I think that in order for me to be convinced of your god’s existence, I’d have to see or experience something similar to what it would take for you to believe in Thor or Odin or Zues or Sheva…
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Interestingly, William, I didn’t see anything in there about finding a good therapist.
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Yes, thank you Arch. ❤
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neurologist may be a good idea too – just rule out tumors and what have you.
seeing is believing, hearing is gullible. The wise realize that if you can see shapes in clouds or in wood grain, then you cant always trust what you thought you saw.
It stands to reason that if there were an all powerful god, that he could raise lizards and mice from the dead, and that he could heal broken necks… but if said creator of all doesnt like some of his creation, then it stands to reason that he his not like a loving father. and if he could prove himself to all of his creation, like he did with crown, but he does not, then it stands to reason that he may be jerk, albeit a divine jerk, if he’ll punish those who dont believe in him.
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“Yes, thank you Arch. ❤”
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I guess I just don’t understand the need for the whole existence/evidence argument. I haven’t been involved in too many debates of that nature as a Christian and even now as a deconvert.
I left religion because I just couldn’t sike myself out to believe (after being a Christian from three to 39 years old) any longer. I also didn’t want to associate with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Church and the like after knowing all that I had learned over the years. My sources weren’t from atheists, but Christians, Church, religious literature, prayer and the Bible, as well as watching and listening to the world around me wherever I traveled and resided.
I wouldn’t call Crown crazy. I had some episodes that I considered to be supernatural. I think this occurs in us even more when we are incredibly “spiritually hungry”. For instance, a few years back (a year before my deconversion) we had a completely new heat and air system installed in our house. In doing so, the guys also installed a couple of extra registers in our master bedroom. At that particular time we had our boys sleep in their rooms while praise and worship music played. I noticed that even when I turned their music off as they got up in the mornings I heard what sounded like “Heavenly sounds” in my bedroom. Obviously, it was just extra noise through the new registers of the A/C flowing into my room. However, I wanted to believe it was a daily angelic visitation I was experiencing.
I also remember hearing things and seeing things that were horribly scary as a kid. Well, I was physically and mentally abused and suffered extreme neglect. When you couple that with extreme indoctrination through Church, my parents and televangelists of the torture and death of Jesus and the constant reminders and description of hell, what can one expect?
I wish Crown the best because if he has really experienced such dramatic events he doesn’t need ridicule, he needs love and understanding.
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