I was listening to a recent speech that Matt Dillahunty gave in Australia (listen here if you’re interested), and in part of it he brought up the story of the Tower of Babel, found in Genesis 11. It’s a story I’ve thought about several times since leaving Christianity. I don’t recall everything Matt said about it, though I know I’ll be making some of the same points he did. I haven’t been a Christian for about 5 years now, and it’s sometimes hard to imagine that I ever believed stories like this one, though I definitely did. And a number of other conservative Christians do as well.
A few days ago, I asked my wife if she remembered what God was angry about in this story, and she gave the same reason that I thought: God was angry because people were being prideful. In case you’ve forgotten, the crux of the story is that several generations after the flood, mankind was growing numerous, and they all had one common language. They decided to build a tower that would reach Heaven (see how prideful?), so God put a stop to it by confusing their language. This caused the various groups to split up, each person going along with whomever could understand him or her.
However, after looking at the details a bit more, it turns out that my recollection was a bit off. First, the people weren’t actually being prideful at all. Instead of trying to build a tower to Heaven — God’s abode — they were just trying to build a tall one to make it easier to stay in one geographic area:
Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”
— Genesis 11:1-4
The phrase “in the heavens” is just talking about the sky, not the realm of God. For just a moment though, let’s pretend that they really had been trying to reach God with their tower. Why would that be such a bad thing? Doesn’t the Bible repeatedly tell us to seek after God? Furthermore, would they have succeeded? On September 12, 2013, Voyager 1 actually left our solar system. In all those miles, it didn’t bump into Heaven. No earth-based tower would ever run the risk of reaching God’s home. So not only were the people not attempting that, even if they had been it wouldn’t have succeeded, and it actually would have been flattering toward God.
So if God wasn’t angry at them for being prideful, why did he confuse their language and force them apart? The next few verses give us the answer:
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth. And from there the Lord dispersed them over the face of all the earth.
— Genesis 11:5-9
Essentially, God was just being a jerk. He was like a kid stirring up an anthill. I mean, God forbid (literally) that people advance technologically, right? Wouldn’t want them discovering things like the germ theory of disease, after all. And why prevent wars by keeping people within the same culture? Much better, I guess, to create different cultures so mistrust and bigotry can form. Furthermore, if this was such a problem at the time, why hasn’t he stopped us again? We’ve figured out ways to overcome language and culture barriers now. We’ve done so much more than just “build a tall tower.” God’s motivation in this story simply makes no sense at all.
However, if you step back for a moment and stop trying to view this as literal history with an actual god, things become clearer. Imagine living thousands of years ago and trying to make sense of the world around you. You think the world is flat and that the sun revolves around it. You don’t understand the cause of thunder storms, earthquakes, or volcanoes. You can’t imagine how animals and humans got here without some kind of creator. And if there’s a creator, why didn’t he make life easier? Why does he allow disease and starvation? There are so many difficult questions that just have no answer. And so people began to formulate answers as best they could. It’s easy to see that one of those questions may have been “why didn’t God (the gods) give us all the same language?” And so they came up with an answer.
Looking at it from that perspective, it’s much easier to understand how a story like this came to be. These people were dealing with the world as they saw it — and to them, the only reason they could think of for God not wanting everyone to have the same language, is that they would accomplish too much. They had no idea that humanity would one day find a way around that problem, rendering their explanation invalid.
Speaking as someone who grew up believing that stories like this were actual history, I know how easy it is to just go along under that assumption without question, especially if those around us believe as we do. It’s not stupidity; it’s either isolation and ignorance, or it’s stubbornness. We can help the isolated and ignorant by just being available to discuss these things when they come up. And with the Bible, there are plenty of examples to be found.
Finding Truth 
The Jewish website to which you are referring states that the Sabbath is always on the seventh day. Look it up.
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As Yoda would say the
“The ignorance is strong with this one”
Par for the course on Nate’s blog
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I think Paul realized that no Gentile in his right mind was going to submit to circumcision, and so he decided that that part could be done away with. I already left a source that said Jews didn’t even practice circumcision until they joined with the Midianites.
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“The Jewish website to which you are referring states that the Sabbath is always on the seventh day. Look it up.’
Perhaps you should learn to read better? but anyway – Here young padawan the source this place loves so much puts it even more simpler for you
“High Sabbaths” are observed by Jews and some Christians. Seven annual Biblical festivals, called miqra (“called assembly”) in Hebrew and “High Sabbath” in English and serving as supplemental testimonies to Sabbath, are specified in the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy; they do not necessarily fall on weekly Sabbath. Three occur in spring: the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover), and Shavuot (Pentecost). Four occur in fall, in the seventh month, and are also called Shabbaton: Rosh Hashanah (Trumpets); Yom Kippur, “Sabbath of Sabbaths” (Atonement); and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Tabernacles). “High Sabbaths” is also often a synonym of “High Holy Days”, viz., Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath#High_Sabbaths
Now perhaps can you cease from your ignorance? or will you just continue showing you are clueless?
Matters not to me except at this point its rather boring correcting you.
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There is nowhere in my comments where I said anything about special holidays (High Sabbats). I specifically said “the Sabbath” and that it what the gospel passage above says, “the Sabbath”.
“The Sabbath” always starts on Friday at sunset.
Jewish rabbis are the ones who point out this contradiction between Jesus’ prophecy of “three days and three nights” (see Asher Norman’s, “Twenty Six Reasons why Jews don’t believe in Jesus”) and the passage above which says specifically that Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation, that the body was placed in the tomb before the Sabbath, that the women rested on the Sabbath, and that the tomb was empty early Sunday morning. The worlds Jewish rabbis and scholars would not believe that Jesus had screwed up, if your interpretation of this event is correct.
Most people would think it wise that regarding Jewish holidays and customs it is best to believe the word of the world’s Jewish rabbis regarding this controversy over that of one evangelical Christian.
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“I think Arch will vote yes if I ask if I should ease off you guys for awhile and allow you to regroup.” – Not at all, I think you should continue making a fool of yourself – why quit now?
“John” was written at least 70 years after the death of Yeshua (if he ever lived), never met the man, and had no idea what he did or said.
Further he was buried, according to all three synoptic gospels, before sundown on the Passover, and according to Luke (23:54) and John (19:31), the next day was the Sabbath, and he was A.W.O.L. the morning after the Sabbath, which places him in the ground the evening following Passover and the evening following the Sabbath – 2 nights.
For those who may not know, Jewish days begin at sunset – so, after sunset at the beginning of Passover, he was taken, then the next morning, Passover Day, judged, crucified, and just before sunset, buried. After sunset that day, began the Sabbath, and was his first night in the ground, followed by the Sabbath day – which was traditionally a Saturday – when no one did nothing under penalty of stoning, and that evening would be the second night. The next morning, which would have been Sunday, he was missing, making Gary right about him having been (allegedly) buried on Friday, and Mike even more of a fool than he usually appears.
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“Here….read and educate yourself before acting like you know what you are talking about” – Do me a favor, Mike – show me which verses of scripture indicate that the day before Yeshua was accused of rising, was a special Sabbath, in any way different from an ordinary Sabbath —
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ROFL….HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
This is great… now we have two ignorant Souls making the same argument and I get to correct two for the price of one
Another exhibit A for the silliness of the followers of Nate’s blog –
“There is nowhere in my comments where I said anything about special holidays (High Sabbats). I specifically said “the Sabbath” and that it what the gospel passage above says, “the Sabbath”.”
“the gospel” dear sonny DOES specify it was a high sabbath. You didn’ t even research the various texts that cover the passover
Another Exhibit B of the silliness of the followers of Nate’s blog –
“show me which verses of scripture indicate that the day before Yeshua was accused of rising, was a special Sabbath, in any way different from an ordinary Sabbath ”
Don’t have to….. the second one was a normal sabbath. When the fell on a regular weekday that week would have two sabbaths so I only need show one Sabbath as a High day as a Sabbath
YOU BOTH ARE A DISGRACE (but a hilarious disgrace I give you that). YOU DON EVEN RESEARCH ANYTHING BEFORE YOU BABBLE. Stay o n Nate’s blog because anywhere else you would be laughed off the stage
Here go uuumm find some truth
John 19;31 NIV
“Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a SPECIAL SABBATH. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
John 19:31
King James Bible
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that SABBATH DAY WAS A HIGH DAY) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Young’s Literal Translation
The Jews, therefore, that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, since it was the preparation, (for that SABBATH WAS A GREAT ONE,) asked of Pilate that their legs may be broken, and they taken away.
” Not at all, I think you should continue making a fool of yourself”
Yes of course if by fool you mean someone who just showed you both have no clue when you claim you have proof texts that are nothing of which you claim
ROFL
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Now let me anticipate where you will slither (and I do mean slither since none of you have the integrity to admit when you are wrong) to next now finally realizing that the bogus claim that sabbaths are always on a Friday is wrong and with textual proof John does specify that sabbath being special.
There are still people who think it was a Friday but there is no such requirement from the text and even those who hold to Friday admit to realizing what you two clowns don’t – that the text of John allows for two sabbaths that week – one for the Passover “complete with a preparation day) and one afterwards . So some people say Thursday and Wednesday as well
Unfortunately for you two poor souls to make your proof text stick you needed to show that it had to be Friday…………and once again because you do know research but just read stuff on the “internets” you can prove no such thing and you have once again FLOPPED.
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“The worlds Jewish rabbis and scholars would not believe that Jesus had screwed up, if your interpretation of this event is correct.”
The contorted reasoning of a Finding Truther. Adherents of Judasim authorities ought to be authorities on their own religion and should also be authorities over Christian issue as well.
you….
just …
can’t….
make …
this…..
silliness…
up…..
You have to come to this blog to find it.
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Hey Arch,
Mike aside, aren’t we really trying to second guess what the Author of Gen 11 was thinking , not God ? Isn’t the Tower of Babel story a myth written by someone much later than what the mythical story was suppose to have happened ? Isn’t this all a moot point ?
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Alright This trip to the Wonderful world of Nate and small clan’s intellectual dishonesty has been real but……
I see That Dave has his own blog and lol……The blundering and lying here by the nate Clan was entertaining for awhile but its just given away to the clan’s blunder after blunder to pathetic status with things like.
I was talking about Tech knowledge but it was not about knowledge (one of the laughers I will remember with great fondness)- NAte
God primarily caring about humanity’s sin/righteousness in the Bible is just an opinion -lol Nan ‘s brief but sweet contribution
We can prove (archeology being the only way) that a religion without artifacts did not exist in a time period – Arch
This text proves its about technological advances …….only it has no such thing in there- nate
to finally the laugher that Sabbaths can only be on Saturdays and the Gospels only ever state “the sabbath” (oops and oops)- Gary and Arch (who l claimed gary was completely right..LOL)
and many many more
Regroup guys. This has been an even worse showing for you than my last times here.
As they say always leave with them wanting more.
So rubberstamp each other to feel better about the flops and intellectual dishonesty ,lick each others wounds and be ready next time.
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From the Jewish website: OutreachJudaism.org
The Crucifixion Date:
On Which Day Was Jesus Crucified?
When examining the four crucifixion accounts as they are presented in the New Testament, it is difficult to identify a single event upon which all four Gospel writers agree. Even the date of the crucifixion is an issue of contention among the four Gospels. A perfunctory examination of New Testament texts reveals that the Books of Matthew1 Mark2 and Luke3 all agree that the Last Supper was actually a Passover Seder. Bearing in mind that Jesus was crucified on the very next day following the Last Supper, that would mean that according to all three synoptic4 Gospels, Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover, or the 15th day of the first Jewish month of Nissan (for example, if tonight were a Passover Seder, tomorrow would then be the first day of Passover).5
The author of the Book of John, however, completely contradicts this crucial element of the crucifixion story as they are presented in the first three Gospels. The author of the fourth Gospel maintains that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover, or the 14th day of Nissan. The Book of John identifies the date of the crucifixion in the following manner: “Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover… Then he handed him over to them to be crucified.” (John 19:14-16)
The implications of this stunning contradiction cannot be overstated. Both claims cannot possibly have occurred. These conflicting claims cannot be explained away with the well-worn assertion that each Gospel writer expressed his own unique perspective. Jesus was either crucified on the eve of Passover, which is the 14th day of Nissan, as John contends, or on the first day of Passover, which is the 15th day of Nissan, as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke maintain. Jesus could not have been crucified on both days. Was the first Good Friday the first day of Passover? According to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, it was; according to John it was not.
As a result of the Gospel conflict over the crucifixion date, numerous other aspects of John’s Passion Narrative differ radically from that of the synoptic Gospels. Therefore, the details in John’s description of what transpired during the Last Supper had to be entirely different from the accounts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. For example, John could not include a Passover Seder in his version of the Last Supper because according to his reckoning of the date of the crucifixion, the night of the Last Supper fell on the night of the 13th day of Nissan, which means Passover had not yet begun. Accordingly, no aspect of the Seder ceremony occurs in John’s Last Supper. In fact, in John’s Gospel, no Communion takes place during the Last Supper (John chapter 13) – no eating of the matzo or drinking of the wine occurs. Because according to his version of the story the festival of Passover began Friday evening, the night of the crucifixion. Therefore, John’s account of the Last Supper contains no ceremonial holiday supper at all; he only describes Jesus’ washing the feet of the disciples.
Moreover, the opening words of John’s 13 th chapter begins, “Now before the festival of the Passover…” This is a striking introduction to John’s Last Supper narrative because it contradicts Matthew, Mark, and Luke’s account, which all claim that the momentous night wasn’t “before the festival of Passover.” Rather, according to the synoptic Gospels, it was the first night of the holiday of Passover. What is more, according to John, when Judas Iscariot mysteriously leaves the Last Supper with the moneybag, the disciples immediately assume that he is taking money to purchase food for the “festive meal” (13:29). Why would the disciples presume that Judas is going to purchase food for the holiday feast if, according to the first three Gospels, they had just eaten the festive meal?
Furthermore, John’s story describes how, when the Jews were handing Jesus over to Pontius Pilate to be crucified on the morning of the crucifixion, “They [the Jews] themselves did not enter the headquarters, so as to avoid ritual defilement and to be able to eat the Passover.”6 (John 18:28) Why were these Jews concerned about not being able to eat the Passover? According to Matthew, Mark, and Luke they had already consumed the lamb the night before because the Passover Seder took place the previous evening. This is not a problem for John because the fourth Gospel states that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover, so that this statement is only consistent with his story. In contrast, the synoptic Gospels never mention in their accounts the fear the Jews had of entering the home of Pilate. Such concern would be preposterous because in Matthew, Mark, and Luke’s crucifixion story, the Jews had already eaten the Passover lamb the previous night.
The first question that immediately comes to mind is why would John change the crucifixion date from the 15th day of Nissan to the 14 thday? Why did the author of the fourth Gospel feel compelled to have Jesus crucified on the eve of Passover rather than the first day of Passover, as the synoptic Gospels claim? The answer emerges when the message John’s Gospel sought to convey is understood. Because the Book of John was the last of the four Gospels to be written, the author was trying to appeal to a Church that had quickly become predominantly gentile. The author of the fourth Gospel had the task of appealing to and thoroughly satisfying the pagan mind of the Greco-Roman world. This was accomplished by carefully integrating heathen practices with elements of the Jewish faith.The notion that an animal was to be revered and sacrificed as a god was well known and widely practiced throughout the Roman Empire,7 in Mystery Religions such as Mithraism, which flourished during the time that the Book of John was written.
John was keenly aware of this rapid transformation, and seamlessly fused the Mithraic sacrifice of the redeeming bull with the Jewish sacrifice of the Paschal lamb. For this reason, John the Baptist proclaims of Jesus, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” (1:29, 36) only in John’s Gospel. Of the four Gospels, only John equates Jesus with the Passover lamb. If Matthew, Mark, and Luke agreed with the fourth Gospel that the Passover lamb represented Jesus, why in the synoptic Gospels’ Last Supper does Jesus raise the matzo saying, “This is my body”? Instead, according to Jewish tradition, he should have raised the Paschal lamb. At Communion, priests should be feeding their parishioners lamb chops rather than a wafer!
In addition, the story told in the Book of John of the Roman soldiers who pierced the side of Jesus rather than break his legs on the cross (John 19:31-37) is not mentioned anywhere else in the New Testament. This brief narrative is only consistent with the theological story line of the fourth Gospel. Only the author of the Book of John was eager not to have Jesus’ bones broken so as not to violate the Torah’s prohibition of breaking the bones of the Paschal lamb (Exodus 12:46). Therefore, John places the crucifixion on the 14th day rather than the 15th, because the Torah commands Israel to slaughter the Paschal lamb on the eve of Passover or on the 14th day of Nissan (Exodus 12:6), John’s Jesus was also “slaughtered” (i.e. crucified) on the eve of Passover or the 14thday of Nissan.
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So according to the Gospel of John:
1. The “Last Supper” occurs on the Eve of the Passover, the 14th day of Nissan, the Day of Preparation. And Jesus is tried and executed the next morning which would still be the Day the Day of Preparation, and he is buried the same day, which would still be the Day of Preparation.
2. That evening, at sunset, the Passover, would begin.
So if Jesus was taken captive on Wednesday evening.
-Tried Thursday morning.
-Crucified Thursday afternoon.
-Buried late Thursday afternoon, prior to sunset.
-The tomb is found empty on Sunday, the “first day of the week”
Jesus would then be in the tomb Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night.
Three nights! Mike is right!!!
Except Mike is only right if we use the Gospel of John and ignore the other three Gospels.
If the Synoptics are correct:
Jesus is arrested immediately after the Passover seder, the 15th of Nissan, the first day of Passover which had begun at sunset. He is tried the next morning (which is still the first day of Passover), crucified that afternoon (still the first day of Passover) and buried in the late afternoon before sunset (still the first day of Passover) by Joseph of Arimethea while some of Jesus’ female followers follow and see the grave. The next day is said to be the Sabbath (and the “next day” started that evening at sunset). Then on Sunday morning the tomb is empty.
Jesus is arrested Thursday night.
Jesus is tried, crucified, and buried on Friday
The tomb is found empty on Sunday, the “first day of the week”.
Jesus is in the tomb Friday night and Saturday night. TWO NIGHTS!
So Mike is correct once, and I am correct THRICE.
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Oh, Mikey, Mikey, Mikey – I’m reminded of an old TV commercial for “LIKE” cereal, two boys are at a breakfast table, arguing over which HAS to try the new cereal, when finally one turns to their little brother and says, “Give it to Mikey, HE’ll eat ANYthing!” Well, now that little Mikey is all grown up, he has apparently decided we’ll swallow anything too —
Of the four gospels, John is the only one who says anything about a HIGH Sabbath – to all of the others, it is simply a Sabbath. Yeshua (if he ever existed) was crucified, by all accounts, on the Passover itself, and buried that evening, before the beginning of a new day. Are you honestly trying to get us to buy that the week went: Passover, High Sabbath, Sabbath? Does that REALLY make any sense, even to you?
The wild-goose-chase link you offered us says the following:
For the record, Passover begins on the 15th day of the Jewish month of Nissan.
Of course one of the greatest problems with the Synoptic Gospels, is that except for pseudoMark, everyone is copying everyone. John is a bit wonky, in that not only is it different, which is a good indication that pseudoJohn didn’t directly copy anyone of whom we’re aware, but on the other hand, it’s a bit TOO different.
You and I have had this discussion before, but all three Synoptics relate the dramatic, trademarked catchphrase, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.” Whereas pseudoJohn, if he were the REAL John, would have been one of those four fishermen (Andrew, Simon, James and John) so selected, leaving poor Zebedee looking for temps. But pseudoJohn tells us, no – it didn’t happen that way at all – the four of us were followers of John the Baptist, when one day I saw Yeshua strolling on the other bank of the Jordan, waded across, spent the night with him, came back and talked James, Simon and Andrew into joining us!
You, of course, in defense of your precious, inerrant Bible, tried to feed us the cow ca-ca that that only meant that the four disciples actually met Yeshua twice, once at the Sea of Galilee, then again in the Jordan, which I’ve kept in a special folder, to which I’ve added your story explaining that just because there is no evidence of Hebrews in Mesopotamia, doesn’t mean there weren’t any. BTW, I tested both of those theories, and you’ll never guess what I found!
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“now finally realizing that the bogus claim that sabbaths are always on a Friday” – You must be drinking again, Mike – scroll up to the part where I said that the Sabbath is traditionally on a Saturday – I can type that more slowly, if it will help you any.
He was arrested the evening that Passover began (Thursday evening), crucified on Passover (Friday), buried Friday evening (just prior to the beginning of the Sabbath), spent Friday and Saturday nights in a grave, and was found M.I.A the following Sunday morning. Sheesh!
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“you….
just …
can’t….
make …
this…..
silliness…
up…..
Apparently, you bring it with you.
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Gen 10, KC, is said by The New American Bible, to be a composite from the Yahwist Source (c.950 BCE), which wrote verses 8-19, 21, 24, and 30, and the Priestly Source (c.550 BCE), which wrote verses 1-7, 20, 22, and 31, which is why certain tribes are listed under both Shem (v. 7) and Ham (v. 26). Unfortunately, there are no such notes to Chapter 11, except that there are three separate notes indicating that the “tower” referenced the Mesopotamian ziggurat, as both you and I have mentioned.
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“The implications of this stunning contradiction cannot be overstated. Both claims cannot possibly have occurred.” – Oh don’t sell Mikey short, Gary – if anyone can warp and twist the facts to preserve the inerrancy of his precious book, it would be Mike!
Actually, I think you’ve presented an excellent analysis. I might add though, that another thing that pseudoJohn’s gospel accomplishes, is that it allows Yeshua to stay in the ground for a third night.
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“Three nights! Mike is right!!! ”
OF course . MIke is always right. 🙂 Figured i would stop in to see how you would try and dig yourself out of your HUGE blunder that Sabbaths always are on Saturdays. You flubbed that and nothing you can do can get you out of that . defended that nonsense for like four posts straight….lol
“Except Mike is only right if we use the Gospel of John and ignore the other three Gospels.”
Nope. sorry to break it to you kid but you are presenting nothing new. Nate and I debated that a long time ago. you can go look it up its in one of these posts somewhere. Looooong old debate so I am not going to rehash it again . Of course he swore and probably still swears he was right but The best he could end up doing was beg and plead that eat the passover can only refer to one meal when the passover has more than one meal . Theres no problem with John and the rest of the Gospels. Your Jewish authorities are not authorities on the New testament.
Here is a snippet that goes into some of the issues and I of course know you and yours will take issue with it and argue it but unfortunately (for you) Argue is all you will do and arguing is nowhere near to your previous sure fire proof text …lol….of the failure of Jesus when you were begging the Bible says Jesus died on a Friday.
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/passovertime.php
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him… (John 13:1-2)
This verse is sometimes seen as a problem because it is is read as saying that the supper and betrayal occurred “before the feast of the passover,” and the Supper, if held (by our reckoning) late Thursday, would have been during the feast of the passover.
But most recognize rather that the only thing being said to be “before” the feast of the passover is Jesus’ knowledge and love (which has no time limit on it), and that verse 2 starts a new train of thought. (This fits in with the understanding as well of John as a supplement to the Synoptics.)
At worst it is admitted that the “vague expression makes it impossible to extract an exact chronology of Passion week” [Mich.Jn, 245]
Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover. (John 18:28)
Here the thought is, Caiaphas and his cohorts have yet to eat the passover; so the Last Supper wasn’t eaten at the normal time, or else someone is making a mistake. Some even suggest that Caiaphas ate the Passover late.
That’s actually very close to the solution. The key here is in knowing that in the popular jargon, and as evidenced by supporting literature, “Passover” was used to refer to the entire feast which was also known as the Feast of Unleavened Bread. During this feast, there were still sacrifices being offered that the priests might temporarily disqualify themselves from by being in the place of a Gentile. Evidence of this loose association is found [Smith.CLS]:
In Luke’s Gospel: Luke 2:41-43 “Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.”; and 22:1 “Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.”
In Mark’s Gospel: Mark 14:12 “And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover…”
In Josephus, who like Mark loosely calls the first day of unleavened bread the passover, and uses the terms inconsistently throughout his works (Antiq. 14.2.1, 17.9.2, 18.2.2, 18.4.3, 20.5.3; War 2.1.3; though always treating them separately when commenting on the OT text)
In rabbinic sources, which refer to the “nights of Passover” (in the plural); even later a distinction between the two holidays disappears altogether
One pushback to this idea is that John uses the same phrase (“to eat the Passover”) as the Synoptics do when they are clearly referring to the “standard” Passover meal on Thursday (Mark 14:12, Luke 22:15, Matt. 26:17). And admittedly, this is the only place where the exact phrase “to eat the Passover” would supposedly be used to refer to a meal that is a later part of the Passover/Unleavened Bread complex, without referring to the “actual” Passover as well.
However, though there is no exact parallel, the data above showing the loose association of the holidays, combined with corollary data showing that John does indeed follow the Synoptic chronology, weigh in great favor of arguing that John is using the phrase in a different way than the Synoptics.
Similarly, in the view championed by Alfred Edersheim, the “Passover” that the Jews were afraid to miss eating was the obligatory Chagigah offering. This was a required “peace-type” offering on the 15th which required Levitical purity to offer and to eat. The meal made of this offering was a joyous occasion. Lest anyone object that there would be no reason to refer to this sacrifice as “the Passover,” Edersheim notes:
One of the most learned Jewish writers, Dr.Saalschutz, is not of his opinion [that there is nothing “Paschal” about the Chagigah]. He writes as follows: The whole feast and all its festive meals were designated as the Passover. See Deuteronomy 16:2, comp. 2 Chronicles 30:24, and 35:8, 9; Sebach. 99, b, Rosh ha Sh. 5, a, where it is expressly said, “What is the meaning of the term Passover?” (Answer) The peace-offerings of the Passover. SOURCE: A. Edersheim, The Temple: Its Ministry and Services
The “why” of the defilement is another matter, which we may as well cover here: nearly all agree that what is in view is the perceived danger of defilement for seven days by being in contact with a corpse. There was a Jewish belief that Gentile dwellings were unclean because Gentiles buried aborted fetuses in their houses or washed them down drains. Under the rubric of Lev. 7:19-21, the priests could not eat of any sacrifice while unclean. However, Carson adds that even the one-day defilement of yeast in the house [cf. Ex. 12:19] would make for a tremendous inconvenience for the priests in their public functions. [Cars.GJ, 588]
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! (John 19:14)
Some point out that John has specified the hour to coordinate with the paschal sacrifice and is making a theological point. But there are two problems with this.
Contradiction is sometimes alleged in that Mark reports the crucifixion at the third hour (Mark 15:25) while John says the sixth. The basic reply is that Mark and the other synoptics are using Jewish time (sunset to sunset; third hour = 9 AM); John is using some form of Roman time, which is like ours (sixth hour = 6 AM – note that John says about the sixth hour; he’s estimating). The former method is still used in the Middle East, and we and other Western nations use the latter.
We know from the Synoptics that the crucifixion took over 6 hours. If John’s sixth hour is really the Jewish sixth hour – noon, as unfortunately, even the Living Bible says – then the crucifixion lasted past the time when the Sabbath started. John 19:31 says that the Jews didn’t want the bodies left up over the Sabbath, which obviously means that the Sabbath hadn’t started yet.
So either John is giving us an extraordinarily short crucifixion, or he is giving us the time in some Roman mode. Since crucifixions were usually extended affairs, the latter assumption is more valid.
But there is an even more clear indication that John is using some form of Roman time. In John 1:39 we are told that Andrew and Peter met Jesus and “spent that day with him. It was about the tenth hour.” If this were Jewish time, that would make it 4 PM – too late to spend the “day” with someone (or maybe 4 AM, as some suggest, which at any rate is not usual visiting hours).
But by the other chronology, it is 10 AM – ample time to spend the day. This is a pretty clear indication of how John is reckoning things. (But again, the LIV gets it wrong here. John 4:6 is a time reference that would fit either paradigm as well.)
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I Must say though Gary your response was much better than Arch’s mess of a response that I couldn’t even bother reading through because the poor soul looks like he was on the brink of a nervous breakdown because he had no clue a week could have more than one Sabbath.
YOu all take care and like I said lick the wounds, regroup and be ready next time
And again my condolences that your sure fire Jesus failed because Sabbaths have to be on Saturday fell so dreadfully apart.
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“Your Jewish authorities are not authorities on the New testament.” – But they are certainly authorities on Jewish customs and traditions, and that IS what we’re discussing here – quit trying to move the goalposts.
“…so the Last Supper wasn’t eaten at the normal time, or else someone is making a mistake” – Really? In the inerrant Bible? SAY it isn’t so –!
“John is using some form of Roman time, which is like ours” – That’s because he wrote in 100+ AD, just as I’ve been saying, and never met Yeshua nor had any idea what he may have done or said.
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“Arch’s mess of a response that I couldn’t even bother reading through because the poor soul looks like he was on the brink of a nervous breakdown because he had no clue a week could have more than one Sabbath.” – Actually, it was far more likely because you were caught with egg on your face and didn’t know how to wiggle out of it.
Passover > High Sabbath > Sabbath – utterly absurd!
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“But they are certainly authorities on Jewish customs and traditions, and that IS what we’re discussing here – quit trying to move the goalposts.”
LOL….Sorry but you ARE quite the nitwit. 🙂 John is a greek new testament book. What John meant and said is dependent on the Greek text as much or more than Jewish customs and traditions. Still if you would adjust your Tri focals you wold see that jewish customs and traditions of the Chagigah are covered.
but of course how could a person so ignorant as yourself that didn’t even know you have more than one sabbath in a week comprehend that, Baby steps….don’t give yourself a headache.
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“Passover > High Sabbath > Sabbath – utterly absurd!”
ROFL…HAHHAHAHHAHAHA
Poor soul. He doesn’t even realize the “utterly absurd” happened often
the passover related sabbath was celebrated on a set date you nit so it would roll through a regular weekday and that would often create two Sabaths in that week
LOL…..poor Arch…..eat more brain food.
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