I was listening to a recent speech that Matt Dillahunty gave in Australia (listen here if you’re interested), and in part of it he brought up the story of the Tower of Babel, found in Genesis 11. It’s a story I’ve thought about several times since leaving Christianity. I don’t recall everything Matt said about it, though I know I’ll be making some of the same points he did. I haven’t been a Christian for about 5 years now, and it’s sometimes hard to imagine that I ever believed stories like this one, though I definitely did. And a number of other conservative Christians do as well.
A few days ago, I asked my wife if she remembered what God was angry about in this story, and she gave the same reason that I thought: God was angry because people were being prideful. In case you’ve forgotten, the crux of the story is that several generations after the flood, mankind was growing numerous, and they all had one common language. They decided to build a tower that would reach Heaven (see how prideful?), so God put a stop to it by confusing their language. This caused the various groups to split up, each person going along with whomever could understand him or her.
However, after looking at the details a bit more, it turns out that my recollection was a bit off. First, the people weren’t actually being prideful at all. Instead of trying to build a tower to Heaven — God’s abode — they were just trying to build a tall one to make it easier to stay in one geographic area:
Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”
— Genesis 11:1-4
The phrase “in the heavens” is just talking about the sky, not the realm of God. For just a moment though, let’s pretend that they really had been trying to reach God with their tower. Why would that be such a bad thing? Doesn’t the Bible repeatedly tell us to seek after God? Furthermore, would they have succeeded? On September 12, 2013, Voyager 1 actually left our solar system. In all those miles, it didn’t bump into Heaven. No earth-based tower would ever run the risk of reaching God’s home. So not only were the people not attempting that, even if they had been it wouldn’t have succeeded, and it actually would have been flattering toward God.
So if God wasn’t angry at them for being prideful, why did he confuse their language and force them apart? The next few verses give us the answer:
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth. And from there the Lord dispersed them over the face of all the earth.
— Genesis 11:5-9
Essentially, God was just being a jerk. He was like a kid stirring up an anthill. I mean, God forbid (literally) that people advance technologically, right? Wouldn’t want them discovering things like the germ theory of disease, after all. And why prevent wars by keeping people within the same culture? Much better, I guess, to create different cultures so mistrust and bigotry can form. Furthermore, if this was such a problem at the time, why hasn’t he stopped us again? We’ve figured out ways to overcome language and culture barriers now. We’ve done so much more than just “build a tall tower.” God’s motivation in this story simply makes no sense at all.
However, if you step back for a moment and stop trying to view this as literal history with an actual god, things become clearer. Imagine living thousands of years ago and trying to make sense of the world around you. You think the world is flat and that the sun revolves around it. You don’t understand the cause of thunder storms, earthquakes, or volcanoes. You can’t imagine how animals and humans got here without some kind of creator. And if there’s a creator, why didn’t he make life easier? Why does he allow disease and starvation? There are so many difficult questions that just have no answer. And so people began to formulate answers as best they could. It’s easy to see that one of those questions may have been “why didn’t God (the gods) give us all the same language?” And so they came up with an answer.
Looking at it from that perspective, it’s much easier to understand how a story like this came to be. These people were dealing with the world as they saw it — and to them, the only reason they could think of for God not wanting everyone to have the same language, is that they would accomplish too much. They had no idea that humanity would one day find a way around that problem, rendering their explanation invalid.
Speaking as someone who grew up believing that stories like this were actual history, I know how easy it is to just go along under that assumption without question, especially if those around us believe as we do. It’s not stupidity; it’s either isolation and ignorance, or it’s stubbornness. We can help the isolated and ignorant by just being available to discuss these things when they come up. And with the Bible, there are plenty of examples to be found.
Finding Truth 
gary/arch,
great points, and I dont disagree, I was just saying that in my mind, this isnt one of the bigger problems… now, jesus and god being the same and different at the same time is an issue…
and mainly I have lately been intrigued by the internal conflict that all men have, and how certain things seem like contradictions; like disliking the discomfort of hunger, but enjoying eating food – how many people enjoy eating food when they’re full? it takes a certain amount of discomfort to bring on my comfort with some things.
athletes and soldiers push themselves through pain, may endure strict diets, and while those can be unpleasant, they get happiness from it in other ways.
so with this in mind, i can get how someone wants to save others, but doesnt want to endure the pain that comes with it – that’s what i was commenting on. like a soldier who dives on aa grenade to save his pals.
to me the issue with jesus isnt that he wanted to avoid pain if he could, it’s that he/god created the rules that dictated he go through with it. it would be like a soldier pulling the pin on his own grenade, then dropping it in his pals’ bunk room before jumping on it to save them… it’s crazy more than it is selfless and loving. his pals were only in danger because he put them in it.
jesus/god created people in a way that they will sin. every man sins. and sin sends them to hell. hell was created by jesus/god. and now, the only way to save people from their sins (that everyone, without exception, is going to have) from hell (a place that didnt exist until jesus/god created it) is that jesus die for everyone.
why make the rules that way? why the makes the rules that way and then proclaim that everyone should be happy about it.
it has to be that way? only because god wanted it to be that way.
it doesnt make sense, i agree with you there.
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A lot pf christians arent good people, paulie, but not all are that way. I know several that are truly the salt of the earth. They do think homosexuality is as wrong as any other sin, they arent hateful people and they even like the “law” being what it is, they just think that it is.
they give of themselves to others, try to always find the good in others – truly good people. i feel sorry for these people and admire them at the same time.
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Here is something interesting that I recently learned:
1. Paul says that he was a Pharisee.
2. The Pharisees and the Sadducees hated each other.
3. The High Priest was a Sadducee.
4. Paul claimed he served as a policeman for the High Priest, persecuting Christians.
Jews says that it is very, very unlikely that the Sadducees would hire a Pharisee to be their policeman. Jews believe this is one of Paul’s many lies.
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Wow, that’s really interesting, Gary. I haven’t heard that criticism before. I’ll look into that when I have some time — thanks for the heads up.
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Here is another fascinating tidbit about Paul of Tarsus:
Paul, in Acts, says that Jesus appeared to him on the Damascus Road and said, “…., why do you kick against the goads?”
Approximately 450 years earlier, another man used this exact same expression. His name was Euripides, a Greek author of mythology. He used this phrase in a conversation he created in his book, “The Bacchae”, involving a conversation between a man/god, Dionysus, and the king of Thebes. The theme of “The Bacchae” is the struggle between a man/god and his persecutor.
Sound familiar?
Isn’t it odd that Jesus would use an expression from Greek mythology during his appearance to the self proclaimed, “Thirteenth Apostle”?
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both interesting point, gary.
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That’s fascinating. Here’s a discussion about it that I found interesting:
http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/15474/did-luke-base-the-story-of-pauls-conversion-on-the-ancient-play-the-bacchae-b
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I came across the above two “tidbits” about Paul in orthodox Jewish author, Asher Norman’s book, “Twenty-Six Reasons Why Jews Don’t Believe in Jesus”. The information presented is jaw-dropping, at least to me. I would encourage anyone interested in messianic claims about Jesus and the self-proclaimed apostolic calling of Paul to read it. It is only 270 pages, and costs $24 if ordered through Amazon.com.
Nate, thanks for the link to the conversation on “The Bacchae”. I found it very interesting. Christians don’t seem to have a good explanation for Jesus using this Greek mythological phrase other than, “So what?”
I think it’s a big deal.
Do Christians really believe that Yahweh, the god of the OT, who became enraged even at the mention of another god, would quote from Greek mythology, quoting another man/god??
It’s preposterous.
Here is one comment from the link you gave, Nate, which is very interesting:
In Acts 26:15, it is said that Paul hears the voice of Jesus say: “Saul, Saul, why persecute me? it is hard for thee to kick against the goads[pros kentra laktizein],” with the KJV using the English synonym ‘pricks’. Uta Ranke-Heinemann, in Putting Away Childish Things, page 163-9, claims there is a parallel in the Bacchae, which is approximately five hundred years older than Acts. Here, Dionysus, the persecuted god, says to King Pentheus, his persecutor: “You disregard my words of warning… and kick against the goads [pros kentra laktizein]” (line 794). Luke retains the plural form of the noun ‘kentra’ which, while maintaining the meter in the Bacchae, seems out of place in Acts. Not only are these words surprisingly similar, but Acts says Jesus that Jesus quoted a Greek proverb to Paul while speaking Aramaic (“in the Hebrew language”). Even the situations are similar, with Jesus as the persecuted God in Acts and Dionysus the persecuted god in the Bacchae.
If further evidence of inspiration from the Bacchae were needed, we can look at Acts 16:25-26, in which Paul is given the opportunity to escape when there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and their fetters were unfastened. In The Bacchae, Euripides writes of the maenads who were being kept in the city’s prison: “The chains on their legs snapped apart by themselves. Untouched by any human hand, the doors swung wide, opening of their own accord.”
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wow
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I thought that was really interesting too. The reference, especially using the exact wording in Greek, points against Acts’s claim that Jesus spoke to Paul “in the Hebrew language.”
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Paul, I’m SO sorry you hurt your back – hugs and kisses to you, buddy! I’m sending positive vibes!!
And Gary, your comment, “I thought SPG was a woman!” made me laugh some of my freckles off . . . oh, my dog!! . . .
. . . and I’m SO glad Mikey went back to quarantine. ..
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This next comment/quote is long, but in my humble opinion, it is a bombshell! Has anyone else ever noticed this about Acts chapter 21?
James, the first Bishop of the Church, and Jesus’ brother, ordered Paul to repent for preaching against the Law!
Paul Visits James at Jerusalem
17 When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers welcomed us warmly. 18 The next day Paul went with us to visit James; and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard it, they praised God. Then they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law. 21 They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 So do what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow. 24 Join these men, go through the rite of purification with them, and pay for the shaving of their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself observe and guard the law. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled[e] and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having purified himself, he entered the temple with them, making public the completion of the days of purification when the sacrifice would be made for each of them.
Analysis by Gary: What does this passage say: Answer: The Church Council ruled that Gentiles are not required to keep all 613 laws of the Torah, but Jews, even Christian Jews, must! In this passage, the Church of Jerusalem, lead by Jesus’ brother, James, orders Paul to undergo an act of purification, an act of repentance, for preaching that the Law had been abolished and to demonstrate to Jewish Christians in Jerusalem and beyond that the Christian Church upheld the Law; that Jewish Christians are still Jews; and all Jews must obey the Laws of the Torah. Paul complies, but if you read his epistles, Paul continued, even after this public rebuke by James and his public shaming, to tell Jewish Christians that they no longer needed to follow the Torah Law.
No wonder Paul defends himself against the charge that he is a liar on several occasions in his epistles. He WAS a liar!
Analysis by Asher Norman, orthodox Jewish author of, “Twenty-Six Reasons Why Jews Don’t Believe in Jesus”:
James ruled that Paul must take an oath, perform public rituals, and pay the expenses of four other people as acts of public repentance for teaching against the law. This was ordered by James to prove to the Jewish followers of Jesus that Paul was personally keeping and not preaching against the 613 laws of the Torah. James clearly did not believe that the laws of the Torah were “fulfilled” by Jesus death. Significantly, one of the requirements of the Nazarite oath is the bringing of a sin sacrifice to the Temple. James’ requirement that Paul take a Nazarite oath proves that James did not believe that the sacrificial system (and sin offerings) was rendered irrelevant by the “atoning death” of Jesus!
The theological significance of Acts 21 is enormous.
In Acts 21 we learn that James required Paul to be “purified” for not keeping the laws of the Torah. James was Jesus’ brother and the first leader of the Jesus movement after Jesus was killed. Therefore, James must have known Jesus’ views regarding the laws. Most Christians read Acts 21 without realizing that James’ opposition to Paul implies that Jesus did NOT oppose the laws of the Torah. If Jesus did oppose the laws, James’ reaction to Paul makes no sense. Therefore, Paul’s gospel not only was heretical from a Jewish theological perspective, it apparently contradicted Jesus’ own teachings!
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Gary
I have been reading up on Christian history of late. It is quite clear that there never was ‘one Christianity’. There were variants from day one. Historians conjecture that James was the leader of ‘Jewish Christianity’, the destruction of Jerusalem led to that version withering and dying.
Over time the ‘winners’ in the fight among various versions of Christianity did their best to eradicate all records of the other versions. But some of the hints actually remain hidden in the Bible itself. In Galatians of course we have Paul talking about ‘various men coming from James’. This has caused consternation to Christian scholars for years, they tend to argue that whilst these people came from James, their extreme views went beyond those of James, but perhaps not?
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Another bombshell:
Was Paul of Tarsus a Roman Agent?
The Jewish Chief Priest during the time of Jesus and the early Church was appointed by the Romans. Therefore, when Paul worked as a policeman for the High Priest, he was working for Rome. How long did Paul’s working relationship with Rome last?
“In Paul’s epistles Paul referred to and praised individuals who were part of the Roman occupation of Judea. Paul referred to “his kinsman Herodian,” who was Herod of Chalus, King Herod Agrippa’s brother. Paul referred to Aristobulus, who was King Herod Agrippa’s son. Paul referred to Epaphrodite, who was Roman Emperor Nero’s personal secretary! These connections may explain why Paul was rescued and protected from the Jewish crowds wanting to kill him in Jerusalem by FOUR HUNDRED AND SEVENTY Roman troops! (Gary: Why was Paul so important to Rome? Would they have called out almost 500 troops for just any Roman citizen?)
Paul taught submission to Roman authority, pretending that such submission was required under Jewish law (it is not).” —-Asher Norman, orthodox Jewish author of, Twenty-Six Reasons Why Jews Don’t Believe in Jesus
Gary: One of the primary pieces of “evidence” that Christians use for the historicity of the Resurrection is the conversion of the Christian-hating/persecuting Jewish Pharisee, Saul/Paul of Tarsus, due to an appearance by the dead Jesus to him on the Damascus Road. But if Paul was an agent of Rome, this “conversion” may have been planned by his Roman superiors as a means to create internal divisions/discord for the Jews, who as a people were becoming a growing menace to the peace, tranquility, and security of the empire. Were Paul’s sufferings as a “follower” of Jesus just part of his cover??
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Peter,
Here is a comment by Asher Norman on the very issue you bring up:
An early Christian group called the Ebionites was comprised of descendants of the original disciples. The Catholic Church persecuted the Ebionites out of existence by the fourth century, but fragments of their writings survive. They wrote that Paul was a Gentile who became a Jewish proselyte, was circumcised as a convert, and studied Judaism. They said that Paul arrived in Jerusalem from Tarsus as an adult hoping to marry the High Priest’s daughter. When she rejected him, Paul became enraged and wrote against circumcision, the kosher laws, the Sabbath, and finally opposed the efficacy of all the laws of the Torah.
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William, you are right, not all Christians are bad. however what is being represented on television makes them all look abysmal. it truly was nothing but lies, hypocrisy and grifting. Christianity needs to clean up it’s act.
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Gary, these are interesting points. I know when I was a Christian, we explained the vow he takes in Jerusalem as a way to bear with the “weaker brethren” at that time who still thought that they should follow the Mosaic Law. Even though Paul was right in saying that it wasn’t necessary, he performed the vow to keep the peace.
I no longer see that as a satisfactory explanation, but thought you would be interested in hearing how we rationalized it.
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I hear what you are saying, Nate.
So Christians expect us to believe that James, Jesus’ brother, Peter, John, Matthew, and the rest of the original Eleven who spent three entire years with Jesus, were confused about whether or not Jesus expected them to keep the Law, but one wild-eyed Pharisee who says that he saw a talking bright light on a lonely stretch of desert highway, says they are all wrong…and that we should take his word for it that the dead Jesus gave him a private revelation of the REAL truth, that he kept hidden from his original apostles.
Just how far into irrationality and the incredulous must Christians venture before seeing that these stories are patent fabrications?
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For further insight into this subject, Peter, I suggest you consider reading Bart Ehrman’s, “Lost Christianities.”
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Sorry for the typo. Should be “blatant” fabrications, not “patent” fabrications.
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Gary, have you heard anything else from “Pastor Bill” since the most recent exchange?
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Nate,
No I haven’t. I’m starting to get the impression that Pastor Bill is not interested in debating/discussing the evidence for Christianity, only to fulfill his responsibility to “give us the Gospel”. He’s done his job. Discussion over.
I’ll give him over the weekend and then send him an email to confirm that the conversation is ended.
I’m not surprised, though. Typical fundamentalist behavior. If you already know you are right and it is absolutely impossible for you to be wrong, why waste your time debating people who obviously don’t WANT to believe.
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Yeah, that’s similar to the kind of “reaching out” I got from people when I left. They think the discussion is a one-way street: they have the “truth” and they’re happy to give it to you. But they’re not interested in considering any of your points. What really baffles me is that they already know they’re talking to someone who used to believe. If they would stop to think for just a minute, they’d realize that we probably already know everything they’re going to tell us, and that we might even know some things that they don’t.
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Pastor Bill just responded, but he didn’t answer any of your questions, Nate. He still seems to be “sharing the Gospel”.
I sent him an email asking him if he was interested in responding to your questions. I will let you know that he says.
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can you provide a link to this discussion?
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