I was listening to a recent speech that Matt Dillahunty gave in Australia (listen here if you’re interested), and in part of it he brought up the story of the Tower of Babel, found in Genesis 11. It’s a story I’ve thought about several times since leaving Christianity. I don’t recall everything Matt said about it, though I know I’ll be making some of the same points he did. I haven’t been a Christian for about 5 years now, and it’s sometimes hard to imagine that I ever believed stories like this one, though I definitely did. And a number of other conservative Christians do as well.
A few days ago, I asked my wife if she remembered what God was angry about in this story, and she gave the same reason that I thought: God was angry because people were being prideful. In case you’ve forgotten, the crux of the story is that several generations after the flood, mankind was growing numerous, and they all had one common language. They decided to build a tower that would reach Heaven (see how prideful?), so God put a stop to it by confusing their language. This caused the various groups to split up, each person going along with whomever could understand him or her.
However, after looking at the details a bit more, it turns out that my recollection was a bit off. First, the people weren’t actually being prideful at all. Instead of trying to build a tower to Heaven — God’s abode — they were just trying to build a tall one to make it easier to stay in one geographic area:
Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”
— Genesis 11:1-4
The phrase “in the heavens” is just talking about the sky, not the realm of God. For just a moment though, let’s pretend that they really had been trying to reach God with their tower. Why would that be such a bad thing? Doesn’t the Bible repeatedly tell us to seek after God? Furthermore, would they have succeeded? On September 12, 2013, Voyager 1 actually left our solar system. In all those miles, it didn’t bump into Heaven. No earth-based tower would ever run the risk of reaching God’s home. So not only were the people not attempting that, even if they had been it wouldn’t have succeeded, and it actually would have been flattering toward God.
So if God wasn’t angry at them for being prideful, why did he confuse their language and force them apart? The next few verses give us the answer:
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth. And from there the Lord dispersed them over the face of all the earth.
— Genesis 11:5-9
Essentially, God was just being a jerk. He was like a kid stirring up an anthill. I mean, God forbid (literally) that people advance technologically, right? Wouldn’t want them discovering things like the germ theory of disease, after all. And why prevent wars by keeping people within the same culture? Much better, I guess, to create different cultures so mistrust and bigotry can form. Furthermore, if this was such a problem at the time, why hasn’t he stopped us again? We’ve figured out ways to overcome language and culture barriers now. We’ve done so much more than just “build a tall tower.” God’s motivation in this story simply makes no sense at all.
However, if you step back for a moment and stop trying to view this as literal history with an actual god, things become clearer. Imagine living thousands of years ago and trying to make sense of the world around you. You think the world is flat and that the sun revolves around it. You don’t understand the cause of thunder storms, earthquakes, or volcanoes. You can’t imagine how animals and humans got here without some kind of creator. And if there’s a creator, why didn’t he make life easier? Why does he allow disease and starvation? There are so many difficult questions that just have no answer. And so people began to formulate answers as best they could. It’s easy to see that one of those questions may have been “why didn’t God (the gods) give us all the same language?” And so they came up with an answer.
Looking at it from that perspective, it’s much easier to understand how a story like this came to be. These people were dealing with the world as they saw it — and to them, the only reason they could think of for God not wanting everyone to have the same language, is that they would accomplish too much. They had no idea that humanity would one day find a way around that problem, rendering their explanation invalid.
Speaking as someone who grew up believing that stories like this were actual history, I know how easy it is to just go along under that assumption without question, especially if those around us believe as we do. It’s not stupidity; it’s either isolation and ignorance, or it’s stubbornness. We can help the isolated and ignorant by just being available to discuss these things when they come up. And with the Bible, there are plenty of examples to be found.
Finding Truth 
“The passages you quoted from pseudoJohn are not quotations from Jesus, ”
Says you, and some people you read and perhaps FInkelstein and we already know how the latter goes. ROFL
BY your failed bail out logic you could argue that Jesus had no teachings at all so to what would Gary be pointing to me as teachings? when I said your mental skills were not up to snuff I was being insulting…..to the snuff.
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“Jews say that Paul was dead wrong to say that Abraham was blessed by God on account of his faith. They say that if you look at what “God” says in Genesis, he blesses Abraham for obedience, not “faith”.”
Your arguments now have been reduced to okay I see the Bible verses but….err…durrr…but the ummm the Jews say. It take a pretty weak mind to make the weak claim that racial authority trumps facts. Its even worse because Jews do not even all agree on the issues.
Come back when you can make arguments based on data not he said she said who said. You are sounding like Arch who runs away whenever he is asked to provide source material or Nate who every single debate I have with him shows he didn’t do much but read Till and wikipedia and is always unaware of key facts of some sort.
So of course Christians have a right to question and even deny that any of you were ever real Christians. Real Christians if they ever did leave the faith would have done far more research not keep whining ….”well de Jews say so that settles it”…lol
As for you and “de jews” claim that faith does not involve obedience try wiggle yourself out of what this verse implies
Acts 6:7
And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were OBEDIENT to the FAITH.
……LOL….come to think about it ..come back when you have read the NT.
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“Says you” – Really, Mike? Show me the part in 3:16 that says, “And Jesus said, ‘God so loved the world –‘”
There’s nothing wrong with you, Mike, that a good reincarnation wouldn’t cure.
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Actually, Gary, there’s no evidence that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ever existed.
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“The teachings in the Gospel of John were written at the very end of the first century or the beginning of the second century. They reflect Pauline Christianity. That is why the authors of the Synoptics do not include Jesus’ statement “quoted” in John 3:16.”
Yawn more babbling. Paul invents Jesus emphasis on Faith and only the Gospel of John highlights faith over obeying the law?
silly person please
Matthew has Jesus with the ability to forgive sins without reference to an act of obedience to the law or sacrificial offering according to the law.
Matthew 9:4-6 (KJV)
4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mark ties faith to the Forgiveness of sin
Mark 2:5 (KJV)
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Luke tells the salvation story of a particular woman being forgiven on the basis of faith
Luke 7:48-50 (KJV)
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Forgiveness of sin and salvation tied solely to faith and not on the basis of obedience to Mosaic law just as John teaches is seen through ALL of the synoptic gospels for anyone that actually reads the New testament. Not only didn’t Paul make up the idea but Luke actually has a particular example of a woman being forgiven/saved on her faith. Jesus talks more about faith than the law in the synoptic Gospels
P.S. my condolences to the Jews you read. As usual their and your arguments go right down the drain when the facts of the NT are checked.
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“Actually, Gary, there’s no evidence that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ever existed.”
Why would there be? Arguments about the Patriarchs are so weak. None of them are said to have built a city, been a high level government official or conducted military exercises. They would be written about only by their ancestors just as they are in the Bible.
Though it would have had great benefit if he had not existed no one really has great evidence that your great great great great great great grandfather ever existed either.
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“The Acts” was written by an unknown author, around the beginning of the second century, and his primary source of information was nothing more than Paul’s letters. One must take anything he says with a grain of salt, as he wasn’t there.
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““The Acts” was written by an unknown author, around the beginning of the second century, and his primary source of information was nothing more than Paul’s letters. ”
Your blusters as fact mean nothing. They are even less effective after your similar blusters on Finkelstein and the non existence of a monarchy recently blew up and put egg on your face. Though there are some debates on the subject many Date the writer of Luke-Acts to the first century. Again go do some reading.
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Conclusions of “The Acts” Seminar:
More mouth-foam, please —
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“Conclusions of “The Acts” Seminar:”
LOL…….a seminar does not establish anything as fact. Its just simply one group’s opinion. The simple things i have to explain to you. Here go read this blogs favorite source for all things
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles#Title.2C_unity_of_Luke-Acts.2C_authorship_and_date
“Acts and the Gospel of Luke make up a two-part work, Luke-Acts, by the same anonymous author, usually dated to around 80-90 CE”
more entertaining bluster please…..oh no … you can wait until I have more popcorn and soda.
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Mike, you are absolutely correct, we can’t really be sure of anything Jesus said because the authors of the Gospels are anonymous. However, IF, we have record of anything he said, it is PROBABLY in the Gospels, as they were written first and their stories compliment each other (and plagiarize Mark). John seems to be writing his own story with some bare skeleton of the same story as in the Synoptics, although with some major discrepancies.
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Yes, Mike. Jesus did talk about faith, but what did he mean by the term “faith”, and, what relationship does this act have with your eternal destiny determined on Judgment Day, according to Jesus?
Answer:
Matthew 25:34-45:
Matthew 25:31-45 appears to precisely describe the details of the Last Judgment (sometimes called the “Day of the Lord”), when Jesus is expected judge every human who has ever lived. The passage explains that he will separate those who are saved (the sheep) from those who are not saved (the goats). The saved will “inherit the kingdom” — that is, go to Heaven. The unsaved will go to Hell where a literal interpretation of the Bible implies that they will be eternally tortured without any hope of relief.
The passage in the King James Version of the Bible describes the scene:
“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”
– “For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat:
-I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink:
-I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
-Naked, and ye clothed me:
-I was sick, and ye visited me:
-I was in prison, and ye came unto me.”
“Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
-“For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat:
-I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink
– I was a stranger, and ye took me not in:
-Naked, and ye clothed me not:
-Sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.”
“Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
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The message is clear: Personal salvation is by works only. It is given to all those who care for the poor and disadvantaged — people who care for anyone who is without food, without friends, in need of clothing, are sick are imprisoned, etc. Salvation and eternal life in Heaven is denied to anyone who did not help the needy while he or she was alive on Earth. One interesting twist is that the “sheep” were surprised that their good works were in any way related to Jesus. They had apparently helped the poor and disadvantaged out of love and compassion, and not with any expectation that their good works would have an effect on their eternal destiny.
One interesting feature of this passage is that salvation is solely based upon a persons acts of charity to others; it is in no way dependent upon what the individual believes about Jesus’ status as a prophet or deity.
Yes, one can find other passages in the New Testament that talk about salvation by faith, but this is what Jesus says his criteria will be to allow you into heaven or cast you into Hell to burn in torment forever. This passage would appear to trump all others.
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“Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He (Jesus) answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'”
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John 5:27
“The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.”
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Matthew 16:27
The Son of Man will come with his angels. When He does, he will repay each man according to his conduct.
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So what does Jesus say in the above passages that one must do to attain eternal life: Keep the Law and do works of charity.
People in the Gospels may have been healed of disease by faith, but for eternal life, according to Jesus, good deeds alone will get you into heaven. If you read the epistle of James, his teachings agree with those of Jesus. The teachings of Paul teach something completely different.
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Oh, now YOU’RE using Wikipedia, the source you ridicule others for using – lame, Mike, just lame.
“In contrast to the scholarly consensus that Acts was written ca. 80ce and the author knew nothing of Paul’s letters, we became convinced that Acts was written ca.115.”
I’ll take the opinion of the panel of experts, but thanks.
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Gary, you can quote all of those you like, but his royal highnass will still handwave it away.
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Here is another fascinating excerpt from orthodox Jewish author Asher Norman’s book (mentioned above) about the “Jesus as the dying Messiah” prophecy in Daniel chapter Nine. Has anyone else ever heard of this?
The Jewish view of Daniel chapter Nine:
In this chapter, Daniel prophesies about two messiahs and two discrete time periods. Daniel’s first time period is a time when a messiah (anointed) would allow the Jews to return to Israel and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. Daniel’s second time period described a time when the rebuilt Temple would again be destroyed and a different messiah (anointed) would be “cut off” (“koras” in Hebrew). Daniel used a poetic technique and referred to these two time periods in terms of “weeks” by which he meant “weeks of years.” To Daniel, a week meant seven years. Daniel’s first time period was seven weeks (of years), which equates to forty-nine years. Daniel said this time period would commence from “the emergence of the word” (davar in Hebrew) by an anointed “prince” who would allow the Jews (in exile in Babylonia), to return to Jerusalem. This anointed prince was Daniel’s first messiah.
Daniel then prophesied about a second time period of sixty-two weeks (of years), which equates to four hundred and thirty-four years. He said that a second messiah (anointed) would suffer koras (be cut off), and the “people of the prince” would destroy the Temple.
Daniel 9:25-26, Jewish Bible (Stone Edition):
“Know therefore and comprehend: from the emergence of the word [davar in Hebrew] to return and build Jerusalem until the anointment of the prince there shall be seven weeks; [this semicolon separates the first time period and the first messiah from the second time period and the second messiah] and for sixty-two weeks it will be rebuilt, street and moat, but in troubled times.” Then, after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one [messiah] will be cut off and will exist no longer; the people of the prince will come and will destroy the city and the Sanctuary…”
Daniel 9:25-26, Christian Bible (New King James Version):
“Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command [properly translated: the word] to restore and build [properly translated: return and build] Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince [properly translated: the prince, not Messiah the Prince] there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; [properly translated: a semi-colon exists after the seven weeks] the street shall be built again, and the wall, [properly translated: street and moat, not street and wall] even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself; [properly translated: will exist no longer] and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.”
Analysis: What an important Semi-Colon!
By removing one lowly semi-colon, Christian apologists use an incorrect start date for Daniel’s prophecy! Daniel began his prophecy with the “emergence” of a word” (davar in Hebrew). Ezra the prophet used this word to identify the event that would begin this period (see below). Daniel prophesied in Daniel chapter nine that a messiah would be “cut off and exist no longer.” Christian translators replaced “exist no longer” with, “but not for Himself,” because Jesus, who is supposed to be “God”, cannot “exist no longer”.
The deliberate removal of the semi-colon, allows Christians to create the false impression that there is only one time period of sixty-nine weeks (seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks) instead of two time periods, one of seven weeks and one of sixty-two weeks. Christian translators and apologists allege that Daniel wrote the number “sixty-nine” as “seven plus sixty-two” instead of simply saying “sixty-nine” weeks. This is a forced reading, and can be shown as false by the next verse in Daniel chapter 9, which again refers to sixty-two weeks, not to the so-called “total” of sixty-nine weeks. The passage states, “And after the sixty-two weeks…” Therefore, the second sixty-two week period refers to a second time period.
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So how do we know that Christian translators deliberately mistranslated Daniel 9:25-26?
The original 1611 edition of the King James Bible, and subsequent editions of the KJV until 1888, contain the semicolon between the two time periods. After 1888, the semicolon was removed from the King James Version of the Christian Bible in order to support the “dying messiah prophecy” claim for Jesus!
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“The message is clear: Personal salvation is by works only. It is given to all those who care for the poor and disadvantaged — people who care for anyone who is without food, without friends, in need of clothing, are sick are imprisoned, etc. Salvation and eternal life in Heaven is denied to anyone who did not help the needy while he or she was alive on Earth.”
BZZZZZ….wrong. The only thing clear was You just clear ignored the passage and put in your own ideas.
Here’s the verse you eyes glazed over on
” Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these MY BRETHREN ye have done it unto me.”
Nowhere does it say that helping the poor and hungry no matter who they are is grounds for salvation. It specifies his brethren which surprise is not the whole human race but other Christians.
Matthew 12:49
“Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers”
Of course actions follow faith. If i say I believe in you but you say “”Jump out the boat you are in danger” and I don’t then how can i say I believed you? Christians are called to love one another and as john says elsewhere anyone that doesn’t isn’t really a believer.
This is your constant confusion when you try desperately to claim faith is an opposite to obedience or that John made up the idea of faith as an opposite to obedience. Really? Like I have said before you need to read the NT and in this case you need to read EVEN JOHN!
John 14:23
“23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.”
So your alleged proof texts show nothing of what you claim and you have shown that you not only haven’t read the Bible but you have no clue what faith involves
A) almost none of the things in Matthew 25 are required by the law
b) John himself indicates that Christians who believe in Christ are obliged to Obey Christ (and most of what Matthew 24 talks about are commands not from the law but himself which John himself records)
C) Matthew 25 specifically limits blessing from acts of love directed to those who are disciples of Christ.
Your other proof texts are even worse. Face it. You have been NAILED by a clear passage that says a woman was saved and forgiven on the basis of her faith not taken from the book of John but from Luke. You are just scurrying about now for any passage that you hope might undo the damage to your argument but none of them apply or work because you don’t even really read your own alleged proof texts..
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““Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He (Jesus) answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
ROFL….embarrassingly dishonest quote mine – you just clear cut of the next verse that follows because it wrecks your claims that following the law gets you everlasting life
Matthew 19:20
“20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; AND COME FOLLOW ME.
the gist of the passage? You can keep the law all you want but you will not have everlasting life without following Christ. Just as John says
I’d say thanks for that one but you ahem….made sure to not quote it.
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“Analysis: What an important Semi-Colon!
By removing one lowly semi-colon, Christian apologists use an incorrect start date for Daniel’s prophecy! ”
lol……..he’s a funny dude and your slightly amusing for believing him
You should stop. You are just digging your hole deeper and deeper. You’ve now proven that your orthodox Jewish author Asher Norman is bonafide full of garbage. WHY?
Lean forward and I’ll tell you
ANCIENT HEBREW MANUSCRIPTS DID NOT HAVE PUNCTUATION. PUNCTUATIONS WERE ONLY ADDED HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12441-punctuation
“When the Biblical text received its final form in the schools of Palestine during the first and second centuries, and the Masorah began its task of preserving this text, it consisted exclusively of letters to which were added no signs either to indicate the vowels or to mark the larger and smaller divisions. ”
So translators are completely free to ignore them since they were not in the text to begin with but added later for readability.
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The Gospels clearly say that Jesus will judge mankind based on our deeds, not our beliefs (faith). You can kick against the goads, Mike; you can stomp up and down spewing grade-school immaturity; but you have been proven wrong. To receive eternal life, one must obey the Law (all 613 if you are a Jew; the 10 Laws of Noah if you are a Gentile) and perform works of charity.
Period .
You and your evangelical buddies follow the teachings of Paul, who invented his theology regarding a “Christ” whom he had never met except in his hallucinations and visions. Luther re-emphasized Pauline Christianity as stated in Romans, and very much wanted to throw the Epistle of James into the flames. As an evangelical Protestant, you follow the teachings of Paul, Luther, and Calvin, and not the teachings of Jesus.
You should change your label from “Christian” to “Paulinian”.
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