I was listening to a recent speech that Matt Dillahunty gave in Australia (listen here if you’re interested), and in part of it he brought up the story of the Tower of Babel, found in Genesis 11. It’s a story I’ve thought about several times since leaving Christianity. I don’t recall everything Matt said about it, though I know I’ll be making some of the same points he did. I haven’t been a Christian for about 5 years now, and it’s sometimes hard to imagine that I ever believed stories like this one, though I definitely did. And a number of other conservative Christians do as well.
A few days ago, I asked my wife if she remembered what God was angry about in this story, and she gave the same reason that I thought: God was angry because people were being prideful. In case you’ve forgotten, the crux of the story is that several generations after the flood, mankind was growing numerous, and they all had one common language. They decided to build a tower that would reach Heaven (see how prideful?), so God put a stop to it by confusing their language. This caused the various groups to split up, each person going along with whomever could understand him or her.
However, after looking at the details a bit more, it turns out that my recollection was a bit off. First, the people weren’t actually being prideful at all. Instead of trying to build a tower to Heaven — God’s abode — they were just trying to build a tall one to make it easier to stay in one geographic area:
Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”
— Genesis 11:1-4
The phrase “in the heavens” is just talking about the sky, not the realm of God. For just a moment though, let’s pretend that they really had been trying to reach God with their tower. Why would that be such a bad thing? Doesn’t the Bible repeatedly tell us to seek after God? Furthermore, would they have succeeded? On September 12, 2013, Voyager 1 actually left our solar system. In all those miles, it didn’t bump into Heaven. No earth-based tower would ever run the risk of reaching God’s home. So not only were the people not attempting that, even if they had been it wouldn’t have succeeded, and it actually would have been flattering toward God.
So if God wasn’t angry at them for being prideful, why did he confuse their language and force them apart? The next few verses give us the answer:
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth. And from there the Lord dispersed them over the face of all the earth.
— Genesis 11:5-9
Essentially, God was just being a jerk. He was like a kid stirring up an anthill. I mean, God forbid (literally) that people advance technologically, right? Wouldn’t want them discovering things like the germ theory of disease, after all. And why prevent wars by keeping people within the same culture? Much better, I guess, to create different cultures so mistrust and bigotry can form. Furthermore, if this was such a problem at the time, why hasn’t he stopped us again? We’ve figured out ways to overcome language and culture barriers now. We’ve done so much more than just “build a tall tower.” God’s motivation in this story simply makes no sense at all.
However, if you step back for a moment and stop trying to view this as literal history with an actual god, things become clearer. Imagine living thousands of years ago and trying to make sense of the world around you. You think the world is flat and that the sun revolves around it. You don’t understand the cause of thunder storms, earthquakes, or volcanoes. You can’t imagine how animals and humans got here without some kind of creator. And if there’s a creator, why didn’t he make life easier? Why does he allow disease and starvation? There are so many difficult questions that just have no answer. And so people began to formulate answers as best they could. It’s easy to see that one of those questions may have been “why didn’t God (the gods) give us all the same language?” And so they came up with an answer.
Looking at it from that perspective, it’s much easier to understand how a story like this came to be. These people were dealing with the world as they saw it — and to them, the only reason they could think of for God not wanting everyone to have the same language, is that they would accomplish too much. They had no idea that humanity would one day find a way around that problem, rendering their explanation invalid.
Speaking as someone who grew up believing that stories like this were actual history, I know how easy it is to just go along under that assumption without question, especially if those around us believe as we do. It’s not stupidity; it’s either isolation and ignorance, or it’s stubbornness. We can help the isolated and ignorant by just being available to discuss these things when they come up. And with the Bible, there are plenty of examples to be found.
Finding Truth 
““Often times even astrological in nature.” – Certainly correct, where do you think the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disciples originate, if not from the zodiac?”
I know a couple that had 12 offsprings. With your stellar reasoning was that a result of the Zodiac as well? lol
Thats where 12 tribes came from (do you people ever read?). The twelve disciples are not derived from the zodiac but undeniably from the 12 tribes/sons.
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“I know a couple that had 12 offsprings. With your stellar reasoning was that a result of the Zodiac as well?” – No, my stellar reasoning tells me they were to cheap to invest a little into birth control.
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” No, my stellar reasoning tells me they were to cheap to invest a little into birth control.”
As the kids sometimes say…… “duh”. Now see if you can strain your brain to figure out what that does to your argument that 12 tribes must have been derived from the zodiac? especially since Birth control would not have been invested in ancient times either.
Fear not. I have confidence it will go right over your head 😉
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Well, when one takes into consideration that the Jacob/Israel story was written by a bunch of priests in Jerusalem, I doubt that it had anything to do with birth control, and far more with ancient superstitions about the sacredness of certain numbers, such as 7, and let’s not forget 40, of “forty days and forty nights” fame. The 12 signs of the zodiac could quite well have been one of those numbers, since there is no archaeological evidence that Abe, Ike, or Jake ever existed.
As far as things going over my head is concerned, you must be under the mistaken impression that I’m as low to the ground as you are.
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“Well, when one takes into consideration that the Jacob/Israel story was written by a bunch of priests in Jerusalem,”
You mean like your beloved Finkelstein had taken into consideration that the davidic monarchy was definitely invented as well….lol
Just one of the findings since you tried to float that drivel
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/141216100433.htm
“you must be under the mistaken impression that I’m as low to the ground as you are.”
IF I were that would render you grounded deeply in the dirt which would have some poetic parallel seeing as how your argument the 12 must have been derived from the zodiac was just firmly driven several feet under as well 😉
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Lets see
Since arch has shown no improvement over the months of my absence let me see…anything else of interest?? well…..not that much interesting but there is this
“If Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel (deceased), and Seth were the only human beings on earth, who did Cain and Seth impregnate to “reproduce and fill the land”??
…sisters not mentioned in the text? …their mother??”
Meh…..not the only options. After all where did Adam get his wife from? Genesis doesn’t cover the issue one way or the other so all options are on the table including they got their wives the same way their father Adam did. No relative need apply. You guys should read a bit more widely. You don’t seem up on things at all.
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Oh, yes. I forgot. God “poofed” Cain and Seth a couple of extra females.
This is why it is useless to debate these people, Arch. When backed into a corner, they can always pull out the “poofing” card.
Interesting dilemma, though, this latest poofing explanation. If God created wives for Cain and Seth, did he create them perfect or as sinners? If he created them perfect, why aren’t they still living, as only Adam, Eve, and their descendants were cursed with death? If we look hard enough, will we find two ten thousand year old women hanging out somewhere in the Near East?
If God created them as sinners and therefore mortal, then these women were condemned to death without the option of executing a free will to choose righteousness. What an evil bastard that would make the Judeo-Christian god, now wouldn’t it? But why do I bother working myself into a psychological lather over these hypothetical questions? Christians will simply call on more poofing to keep this nonsensical ancient tale from dying the quick death that it so deserves.
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Here is something I came across this weekend:
Muslims believe that several New Testament Bible passages predict the coming of Mohammad. Muslims believe that the reason that Christians do not recognize these Mohammad prophecies in their Bibles is because they are incorrectly interpreting the original Greek! Can you imagine these arrogant Muslims believing that they understand the Christian Bible better than Christians??
How outrageous! How shocking! How absurd!
Why…it is almost as absurd as seminary graduates from Christian Bible colleges in Texas and Virginia believing that they understand the messianic prophecies in the ancient Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) better than every Jewish rabbi and sage living on the planet today and every rabbi and sage of the last 2,000 years!
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I am currently reading articles by Jewish rabbis regarding why Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah. There is a really good book by a Jewish rabbi entitled, “26 Reasons why Jews Reject Jesus as the Messiah”. One of those reasons is the following:
Jews have always believed that the true Messiah will be a member of the tribe of Judah and a direct descendant of King David…through his BIRTH FATHER. If the messiah claimant’s father is not a descendant of David, he cannot be the messiah. If the New Testament is true and Jesus was born of a virgin, then he is automatically disqualified from being a messiah candidate.
Adoption by Joseph would not have solved the problem. His Davidic heritage MUST come from his birth father. And the ancestry of the mother is irrelevant.
I believe that this one issue sinks all claims for Jesus to have been the Messiah or sinks his claim (if he even made it) of being the Son of God. It’s one or the other (or neither). Christians try to concoct some really wild harmonizatons such as an exception for the children of unmarried women, but according to Jews, this is nonsense…besides it would confirm what Jews have always said: Jesus was a bastard
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“Oh, yes. I forgot. God “poofed” Cain and Seth a couple of extra females.
This is why it is useless to debate these people, Arch. When backed into a corner, they can always pull out the “poofing” card.”
I’d ask you to not be silly but I gather you would not or could not comply. Genesis already has a wife being supplied to Adam. Thats part of the narrative you are debating. Thats not an invention to the text thats a part of it’s general context .
now since I have to first teach you how to debate logically. You can not presume your conclusion as a point against an opposing viewpoint and call it a meaningful point. Its circular. So saying “oh they invoke a supernatural God and I don’t believe in one so they are incoherent ” is just nonsense debating skills.
In short since God already “poofs” Eve into existence you cannot show an internal inconsistency in a similar situation happening with Adam’s sons. So you are an atheist. so what? Is that a newsflash? get to work showing me how you can have a natural reality that doesn’t have an an ultimate cause and i’ll watch you twist yourself into a pretzel on the subject of the supernatural.
“Interesting dilemma, though, this latest poofing explanation. If God created wives for Cain and Seth, did he create them perfect or as sinners? If he created them perfect, why aren’t they still living, as only Adam, Eve, and their descendants were cursed with death? ”
Your dilemmas are in your head and don’t exist in the premise. Apparently I have to teach you about Adam and Eve in the text too. Eve was made from Adam. If Adam had been a sinner then she would have been one as well.
Nada dillema. IF the wives were made from the sons they would be sinners too.
See why I have a hard time buying you guys were really Christians? you don’t even have the basics down
” But why do I bother working myself into a psychological lather over these hypothetical questions?”
You bother because you are isolated to little corners like this because most sensible people do not buy the materialistic fairy tale construct that the universe can escape a causeless and therefore supernatural origin.
I’d gladly debate you on that issue since your comrades have either ran for cover on this subject or in the case of your beloved Nate tried to silence it because he can’t debate on it
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” Can you imagine these arrogant Muslims believing that they understand the Christian Bible better than Christians??
How outrageous! How shocking! How absurd!”
Sorry but the only thing shocking and absurd is your logic . Both the christian scriptures and the Jewish scriptures ( which is really where you wanted to go with this) have been around for close to two thousand years. Its entirely possible that a Muslim that applies himself can understand the NT better than a Christian if he studies it particularly in its original language. Nothing forbids it
No one alive today can make a claim that because they are or a particular race or persuasion they automatically have a better understanding of an ancient text especially since none of them were alive when it was written. SO despite a preambling beg the issue comes down to the merits of the text and what the text says not what a groups says it says.
There is no argument from authority based on being Jewish, Christian or Muslim. Like any other kind of point it must be argued on the merits. Anything else is nonsense
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“You mean like your beloved Finkelstein had taken into consideration that the davidic monarchy was definitely invented as well….” – As far as I know, he never said that, he simply said that all evidence pointed to it being much smaller and far less all-em=ncompassing than your Bible portrayed it to be.
How many aliases have you invented since last you were here? Do you get banned from blogs, then invent a new one? It wouldn’t surprise me.
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I know, Gary – pathetic, isn’t it? Suppose Unk sent him over?
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“Jews have always believed that the true Messiah will be a member of the tribe of Judah and a direct descendant of King David…through his BIRTH FATHER. If the messiah claimant’s father is not a descendant of David, he cannot be the messiah. If the New Testament is true and Jesus was born of a virgin, then he is automatically disqualified from being a messiah candidate.”
Your previous preamble beg having been defeated this can be dismissed on the same grounds. This is why you begged for race to be a deciding factor as to whom to believe. Unfortunately for you, there being MANY messianic Jews your jews versus Christian argument dies on ALL Accounts. There are many Jews that accept Jesus as the Messiah
There is no text that states a king must be one only through his birth father. Messiah though must take up the mantle of David. In some cases he is to be so similar to david he is called by his name.
Who preceded David for David to be king? Guess what it was Saul and Saul was Not David’s father. When God chose David he chose who he wished not a descendant of Saul. The claim a king must always be directly related through a father died the death when David became king and its David that the messiah was to be modelled by. Furthermore the act of taking a man king besides God was considered a rejection of God himself to be their king (I samuel) that had and has to be corrected.
“I believe that this one issue sinks all claims for Jesus to have been the Messiah”
You believe a great many things that are nonsense but unfortunate for you David’s monarchy itself proves you wrong
P.S. You are late. Most of such points have been answered for years even by other JEWS
He has two more volumes and ummmm you’ll love it …..he’s Jewish.
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Do you ever even listen to yourself and the nonsense you spout, Mike? Or do you just ramble on and hope somebody buys it? Women made from Seth and Cain? Gen 2 being anything but just another creation myth? What has to happen for a person to become that deluded?
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“As far as I know, he never said that”
Rubbish. He’s scoffed at the idea for years at anyone that suggested a Davidic monarchy was real
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/2010/12/david-and-solomon/draper-text
and you were harping on his conclusions claiming that any and all finds backing the kingdom of David was for tourist reasons. LOL but given you once tried to claim a mountain was several miles away from where it is today just to save face on another of your claimed biblical inconsistencies gone splat i know you will deny it.
0 for infinity finding an honest atheist (agnostics I have met a few honest ones)
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” Women made from Seth and Cain? Gen 2 being anything but just another creation myth? What has to happen for a person to become that deluded?”
LOL this coming from the guy (and later group) that defended the ideas of Krauss of everything coming out of nothing.
Women coming from Seth and Cain is so ordinary a starting point when you put everything coming out of nothing don’t you think? (I know ..rhetorical…you don’t).
The whole anti supernatural thing works only on people who don’t realize you peddle even better fairy tales than the most diehard religious fanatic. BTW Krauss has this great video where he states that its possible in QM that a fully formed human being could appear out of thin air. Whats a little biblical reproduction compared to that?
You’ll love it. lol
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So Arch, I’ve said this before and I guess I’m going to say it again. WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO MIKE!?
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” Women made from Seth and Cain? Gen 2 being anything but just another creation myth? What has to happen for a person to become that deluded?”
He’s still delusional that he can answer my points. You at least have enough sense to know you are incapable of debating substantively on anything.
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Interesting, Mike – I say that Finklestein opted for a hamlet, as opposed to a grandiose city, and what is the subtitle of the article you sent me to: “Was the Kingdom of David and Solomon a glorious empire—or just a little cow town?” – now why would they refer to a “cow town” if Finklestein had said that a city of David was nonexistent?
From your same article:
“Israeli archaeologist David Ilan of Hebrew Union College doubts that Mazar has found King David’s palace. ‘My gut tells me this is an eighth- or ninth-century building,’ he says, constructed a hundred years or more after Solomon died in 930 B.C.”
Ilan continues:
It consludes with:
“Absent more evidence, we’re left with the decidedly drab tenth-century B.C. biblical world that Finkelstein first proposed in a 1996 paper.
Maybe you should actually read these all the way through before you offer them as evidence of anything. Your reputation here is far from great as it is. If you read your Bible the same way, I can certainly see why you’re so confused.
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“Apparently I have to teach you about Adam and Eve in the text too. Eve was made from Adam. If Adam had been a sinner then she would have been one as well. Nada dillema. IF the wives were made from the sons they would be sinners too.”
I am willing to debate anyone…except a moron.
Compared to this prick, UnkleE is a sweetheart.
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Hey, listen Mikey – I need to hit the rack, and I have to go out of town tomorrow, but you just go ahead and rant, your blitherings will still be here when I get back.
Oh, and I’ll take Krause’s universe from nothing LONG before I’d even remotely consider your “a little desert storm god named YHWH did it”!
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” now why would they refer to a “cow town” if Finklestein had said that a city of David was nonexistent?
”
Try and keep up Poor arch. I said DAVIDIC MONARCHY not city of David. finkeltsseins claim for years was that no such monarchy as described in the BIble could have existed. I linked to that for this quote you conveniently left out representative of his (and your) position and mocking of the idea —
“During David’s time, as Finkelstein casts it, Jerusalem was little more than a “hill-country village,” David himself a raggedy upstart akin to Pancho Villa, and his legion of followers more like “500 people with sticks in their hands shouting and cursing and spitting—not the stuff of great armies of chariots described in the text.
“Of course we’re not looking at the palace of David!” Finkelstein roars at the very mention of Mazar’s discovery. “I mean, come on. I respect her efforts. I like her—very nice lady. But this interpretation is—how to say it?—a bit naive.”
SO nice try at a switch to “city of David” but what has continued to gain weight is that FInkelstein and YOU were wrong on the monarchy of David.
Maybe you should read better and ummm consult the recent finds too
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Hayden – remember “The Artist Formerly Known As Prince“? Well, ABlacksmanagain is the basketcase formerly known as Mike. He plagued us with his nonsense and snide, caustic remarks for about a month last year.
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“I am willing to debate anyone…except a moron.”
NOt true. I sense you have great debates in the mirror with one. 😉
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