927 thoughts on “What Makes Something Right or Wrong?”
insanitybytes22
said:
June 11, 2015 at 7:55 am
Arch, go away. I know a bunch of pseudo-Christians who share not only your arrogance, but your desire to rid people of their faith. Go play with them, I’m not interested in what you’re selling.
I copy and paste the above comment and then post it on at least five Christian blogs under a post on the same topic and check off “notify me of follow up comments”. Once and a while someone bites and we have a conversation. But if no one bites, that’s ok. My comment will stay on the world wide internet for all eternity (unless deleted by an insecure Christian blog owner) and hopefully someday a Christian lurking in silence will see my comment, his curiosity will be stimulated, he will investigate his assumption-based belief system, and realize it is false…and be set free from it.
I consider myself an evangelist. An evangelist for the Truth…the truth.
I cast the seeds of Truth far and wide. Sometimes they fall on rocks and the seed of Truth dies. But sometimes they fall on fertile soil, sprout, take root, and become a beautiful secular humanist.
Christianity is only advanced for its own sake if, as a revealed religion, it produces evidence of its claims. It has been unable to provide any. Thus, is as it always was, reliant on faith through overt and or insidious indoctrination.
Here are the claims I would make as a liberal Christian:
1) A deity exists that started the universe and gave it space-time, particles and laws
2) This universe has been fine-tuned to support life on at least one planet and possibly others
3) This deity has raised Jesus to life because it wants us to take notice of his teachings
4) The basic teachings of Jesus (love each other) can help us improve our lives and the future of humanity
Evidence for these claims:
– Billions of people believe in a higher power
– We have a moral conscience that agrees with the main teaching of Jesus: Love each other
– Jesus’ resurrection started a movement that has permeated all cultures and has led to a lot of “goodwill to all men”.
– Christians have the best inspirational and uplifting music
…
Okay, cue the tumbleweed animation, I’m running out of ideas here. I’m certainly not cut out to be an apologist…
This is my criteria for whether or not to debate a Christian:
Dear Mr. or Ms. Christian:
1. Do you believe that if one rejects Jesus he or she will receive some form of punishment in this life or the next?
2. Is Jesus the only way to God/eternal happiness?
3. Do you believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected, defying all laws of medical science?
If the Christian answers, “no”, to all three questions, I consider him a true liberal and fellow humanist. I congratulate him on his very intelligent world view and move on to sow the seeds of Truth with someone who answers “yes” to one of the above questions.
So to you, “hypothetical Christian Dave”: My first question would be: Why do you believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead?
Dave, I think your experiment is a great idea! I don’t think I would be very good at it either, but I applaud your efforts!
Gary, I’m not sure how effective your suggestion is, but I still think it has some merit. Certainly can’t hurt anything! I think the biggest issue is just the near constant rejection you would face. If you can withstand that, then I think it’s an admirable effort.
Alright Christian Dave, here’s my take on your arguments:
– Billions of people believe in a higher power
But they can’t agree on which one. Christians don’t even agree with each other on the aspects of their deities.
– We have a moral conscience that agrees with the main teaching of Jesus: Love each other
Hmm. Jesus taught a lot of things. He did (if we can trust the gospels) think that love of God and love of humanity were the basis for everything else he taught. So in that way, I guess loving each other was one of his main messages. But he also taught that family members should turn against one another if they were in disagreement about Christianity. That very much goes against our moral conscience. Honestly, it even violates his teaching about loving other people, since loving each other requires at least some level of acceptance.
– Jesus’ resurrection started a movement that has permeated all cultures and has led to a lot of “goodwill to all men”.
Has it really? Christianity’s spread was very human in nature, which means it took many centuries to actually spread into all cultures, if it’s even done that. It depends on what you mean… has almost everyone heard of Jesus? Probably. But those who follow him are still a minority. And while many Christians have done good things for others, Christianity has also inspired a lot of hate and violence.
– Christians have the best inspirational and uplifting music
This probably only seems true if one is or was a Christian…
“Jesus’ resurrection started a movement that has permeated all cultures and has led to a lot of ‘goodwill to all men’.” – And brought us the ever-popular Inquisition!
It seems that every time I get into a discussion with a Christian regarding whether the claims of Christianity are true or not, the first place they want to go is “evidence for a Creator”. They want to point out that all the fixed laws of physics and other sciences are proof of intelligent design, and therefore, proof of Yahweh/Jesus/the Trinitarian god.
I stop them in their tracks with this statement:
“Oh, I’m sorry. I must have not explained my position well. I am not an atheist. I am certainly willing to consider the existence of a Creator. The fixed laws of physics certainly could point to intelligent design of the universe. So my question is not “is there a Creator?” but “is the Christian god the Creator?”; is he who he says he is; and, does he even exist? Wouldn’t you agree that even if there is a Creator, that doesn’t prove that he/she/it is the Christian god.
So Mr./Ms. Christian, what evidence do you have that the Christian god is the Creator?”
The Christian then usually says, “the resurrection of Jesus”, or, “the many OT prophecies that Jesus fulfilled”.
Great!
I don’t want to spin my wheels debating something that neither I nor the Christian can prove: a Creator. I stand a much better chance of “winning” by discussing the evidence for the Resurrection and the evidence for prophecy fulfillment.
So to you, “hypothetical Christian Dave”: My first question would be: Why do you believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead?
Without Jesus, my progressive Christianity starts to dwindle down to just deism and humanism. So yes, your question is a critical component of the entire belief system.
Let’s see, I could go with the shroud of turin, Saul/Paul’s conversion, or the “best explanation” of the famous “three historical facts”, but we’ve already covered these in the past. Perhaps I’ll go with the “people don’t die for a lie” argument.
Alright Christian Dave, here’s my take on your arguments:
All good points Nate. Jesus supposedly said some other strange things too, like “let the dead bury their own dead”. Not sure how to defend those sayings except to say that he was misquoted. But now I’m left cherry-picking the parts I like and creating my own version of God-Jesus. Hmm…
It’s listed in alphabetical order so you have to click on the letter of the name of the apostle you want to check out and their biography follows. Here’s Paul’s, for example: http://newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm
As far as I know, we have zero contemporaneous accounts of the deaths/martyrdoms of any of the original Eleven. A Christian in the late second or even third century gave a list of causes of death for each of the Eleven, all martyred except John.
Could his list be historically accurate? Yes.
Could it be legendary oral tradition only? Yes.
Could it be a pure fabrication? Yes.
Therefore we have only second or third century hearsay as evidence that any of the Eleven were willing to die for a lie.
What about James, the brother of Jesus?
Josephus mentions James’ murder at the hands of the high priest but other than that we have no other mention (that I know of) of this event. One must remember that the writings of Josephus came under the possession and control of the Catholic Church for hundreds of years. The statements by Josephus regarding Jesus are now believed by many scholars to be Christian interpolations (fraud). Could this have happened with this statement about James??
Answer: We don’t know.
Even if James was murdered, why was he murdered and was he given a chance to live if he would only recant having seen a bodily resurrected Jesus?
Answer: We don’t know.
What about Paul of Tarsus?
Paul says in his first (remaining) epistle to the Corinthians he “saw the Christ”, but the author of Luke says that all Paul saw was a talking bright light. Paul frequently defends himself against the accusation of being a liar and false apostle. How do we know that he wasn’t? How do we know he didn’t lie about “seeing the Christ”. Anyone who says that he was teleported to a “third heaven” and heard things that he can’t tell to anyone is probably in need of a good psychiatrist.
Paul is not a reliable witness. I personally think he was mentally ill or a Roman secret agent.
I’ve read through some of the disciples pages from your link Ruth. The deaths of Peter and Paul are mentioned in Chapter 5 of 1st Clement (written A.D. 80 – 140). They died a martyrs death, probably in Rome during the Neronian persecution in 67 A.D. Apparently the Christians were blamed for starting a fire and this is what caused the persecution. So while they may have been wrongly accused and murdered, they were not necessarily killed because of a belief in a resurrection (at least not in this case it seems).
From the article you cited:
“The most commonly accepted church tradition in regard to the death of an apostle is that the apostle Peter was crucified upside-down in Rome in fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy (John 21:18).” – Poor Pete was also rumored to have been beheaded in Alexandria, Egypt, but the source didn’t mention whether that was before, or after his crucifixion in Rome.
Finding Truth 
And I thought she liked me – I’m crushed –:-(
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“Isn’t Tiribulus just the best? He’s like a big, fuzzy, teddy bear. – So was Lurch.
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Now I know what to sent to a baby shower for someone I don’t like!
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Jeez…I don’t want to be someone you don’t like! Are you automatically assuming that since you don’t like them you won’t like their kid either?
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“Are you automatically assuming that since you don’t like them you won’t like their kid either?” – Unto the tenth generation —
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Anywho…
I copy and paste the above comment and then post it on at least five Christian blogs under a post on the same topic and check off “notify me of follow up comments”. Once and a while someone bites and we have a conversation. But if no one bites, that’s ok. My comment will stay on the world wide internet for all eternity (unless deleted by an insecure Christian blog owner) and hopefully someday a Christian lurking in silence will see my comment, his curiosity will be stimulated, he will investigate his assumption-based belief system, and realize it is false…and be set free from it.
I consider myself an evangelist. An evangelist for the Truth…the truth.
I cast the seeds of Truth far and wide. Sometimes they fall on rocks and the seed of Truth dies. But sometimes they fall on fertile soil, sprout, take root, and become a beautiful secular humanist.
That is my hope and goal at least.
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Sorry. Should say:
An evangelist for the Truth…the REAL truth.
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Here are the claims I would make as a liberal Christian:
1) A deity exists that started the universe and gave it space-time, particles and laws
2) This universe has been fine-tuned to support life on at least one planet and possibly others
3) This deity has raised Jesus to life because it wants us to take notice of his teachings
4) The basic teachings of Jesus (love each other) can help us improve our lives and the future of humanity
Evidence for these claims:
– Billions of people believe in a higher power
– We have a moral conscience that agrees with the main teaching of Jesus: Love each other
– Jesus’ resurrection started a movement that has permeated all cultures and has led to a lot of “goodwill to all men”.
– Christians have the best inspirational and uplifting music
…
Okay, cue the tumbleweed animation, I’m running out of ideas here. I’m certainly not cut out to be an apologist…
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This is my criteria for whether or not to debate a Christian:
Dear Mr. or Ms. Christian:
1. Do you believe that if one rejects Jesus he or she will receive some form of punishment in this life or the next?
2. Is Jesus the only way to God/eternal happiness?
3. Do you believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected, defying all laws of medical science?
If the Christian answers, “no”, to all three questions, I consider him a true liberal and fellow humanist. I congratulate him on his very intelligent world view and move on to sow the seeds of Truth with someone who answers “yes” to one of the above questions.
So to you, “hypothetical Christian Dave”: My first question would be: Why do you believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected from the dead?
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Dave, I think your experiment is a great idea! I don’t think I would be very good at it either, but I applaud your efforts!
Gary, I’m not sure how effective your suggestion is, but I still think it has some merit. Certainly can’t hurt anything! I think the biggest issue is just the near constant rejection you would face. If you can withstand that, then I think it’s an admirable effort.
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Alright Christian Dave, here’s my take on your arguments:
But they can’t agree on which one. Christians don’t even agree with each other on the aspects of their deities.
Hmm. Jesus taught a lot of things. He did (if we can trust the gospels) think that love of God and love of humanity were the basis for everything else he taught. So in that way, I guess loving each other was one of his main messages. But he also taught that family members should turn against one another if they were in disagreement about Christianity. That very much goes against our moral conscience. Honestly, it even violates his teaching about loving other people, since loving each other requires at least some level of acceptance.
Has it really? Christianity’s spread was very human in nature, which means it took many centuries to actually spread into all cultures, if it’s even done that. It depends on what you mean… has almost everyone heard of Jesus? Probably. But those who follow him are still a minority. And while many Christians have done good things for others, Christianity has also inspired a lot of hate and violence.
This probably only seems true if one is or was a Christian…
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“Jesus’ resurrection started a movement that has permeated all cultures and has led to a lot of ‘goodwill to all men’.” – And brought us the ever-popular Inquisition!
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That’s a great movie. 🙂
“The servant waits while the master baits.”
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It seems that every time I get into a discussion with a Christian regarding whether the claims of Christianity are true or not, the first place they want to go is “evidence for a Creator”. They want to point out that all the fixed laws of physics and other sciences are proof of intelligent design, and therefore, proof of Yahweh/Jesus/the Trinitarian god.
I stop them in their tracks with this statement:
“Oh, I’m sorry. I must have not explained my position well. I am not an atheist. I am certainly willing to consider the existence of a Creator. The fixed laws of physics certainly could point to intelligent design of the universe. So my question is not “is there a Creator?” but “is the Christian god the Creator?”; is he who he says he is; and, does he even exist? Wouldn’t you agree that even if there is a Creator, that doesn’t prove that he/she/it is the Christian god.
So Mr./Ms. Christian, what evidence do you have that the Christian god is the Creator?”
The Christian then usually says, “the resurrection of Jesus”, or, “the many OT prophecies that Jesus fulfilled”.
Great!
I don’t want to spin my wheels debating something that neither I nor the Christian can prove: a Creator. I stand a much better chance of “winning” by discussing the evidence for the Resurrection and the evidence for prophecy fulfillment.
That’s my strategy, at least.
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@Crispyian- Dave
Ha! Playing dirty now, are you? I see you uplifting music and raise you … this!
Eat dirt , Kincaid! Some Aussie Christian band I found on the Face Tube.
(the guitarist is apparently unklee moonlighting)
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Without Jesus, my progressive Christianity starts to dwindle down to just deism and humanism. So yes, your question is a critical component of the entire belief system.
Let’s see, I could go with the shroud of turin, Saul/Paul’s conversion, or the “best explanation” of the famous “three historical facts”, but we’ve already covered these in the past. Perhaps I’ll go with the “people don’t die for a lie” argument.
http://www.gotquestions.org/apostles-die.html
Does anyone know the actual origin of these martyrdom stories?
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He he. Obviously those are Satan worshipers 🙂
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All good points Nate. Jesus supposedly said some other strange things too, like “let the dead bury their own dead”. Not sure how to defend those sayings except to say that he was misquoted. But now I’m left cherry-picking the parts I like and creating my own version of God-Jesus. Hmm…
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“Does anyone know the actual origin of these martyrdom stories?”
We’ve discussed this here before but the best information I could find was at the Catholic Encyclopedia:
http://newadvent.org/cathen/
It’s listed in alphabetical order so you have to click on the letter of the name of the apostle you want to check out and their biography follows. Here’s Paul’s, for example: http://newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm
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Christian Dave:
As far as I know, we have zero contemporaneous accounts of the deaths/martyrdoms of any of the original Eleven. A Christian in the late second or even third century gave a list of causes of death for each of the Eleven, all martyred except John.
Could his list be historically accurate? Yes.
Could it be legendary oral tradition only? Yes.
Could it be a pure fabrication? Yes.
Therefore we have only second or third century hearsay as evidence that any of the Eleven were willing to die for a lie.
What about James, the brother of Jesus?
Josephus mentions James’ murder at the hands of the high priest but other than that we have no other mention (that I know of) of this event. One must remember that the writings of Josephus came under the possession and control of the Catholic Church for hundreds of years. The statements by Josephus regarding Jesus are now believed by many scholars to be Christian interpolations (fraud). Could this have happened with this statement about James??
Answer: We don’t know.
Even if James was murdered, why was he murdered and was he given a chance to live if he would only recant having seen a bodily resurrected Jesus?
Answer: We don’t know.
What about Paul of Tarsus?
Paul says in his first (remaining) epistle to the Corinthians he “saw the Christ”, but the author of Luke says that all Paul saw was a talking bright light. Paul frequently defends himself against the accusation of being a liar and false apostle. How do we know that he wasn’t? How do we know he didn’t lie about “seeing the Christ”. Anyone who says that he was teleported to a “third heaven” and heard things that he can’t tell to anyone is probably in need of a good psychiatrist.
Paul is not a reliable witness. I personally think he was mentally ill or a Roman secret agent.
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Thanks Gary and Ruth.
I’ve read through some of the disciples pages from your link Ruth. The deaths of Peter and Paul are mentioned in Chapter 5 of 1st Clement (written A.D. 80 – 140). They died a martyrs death, probably in Rome during the Neronian persecution in 67 A.D. Apparently the Christians were blamed for starting a fire and this is what caused the persecution. So while they may have been wrongly accused and murdered, they were not necessarily killed because of a belief in a resurrection (at least not in this case it seems).
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“Perhaps I’ll go with the ‘people don’t die for a lie’ argument.” – So you’re saying that there actually ARE Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq?
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From the article you cited:
“The most commonly accepted church tradition in regard to the death of an apostle is that the apostle Peter was crucified upside-down in Rome in fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy (John 21:18).” – Poor Pete was also rumored to have been beheaded in Alexandria, Egypt, but the source didn’t mention whether that was before, or after his crucifixion in Rome.
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Ok, Christian Dave. Are you in agreement that “Wouldn’t die for a lie” won’t fly? If so, what is your next evidence?
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