927 thoughts on “What Makes Something Right or Wrong?”
Peter, that makes a lot of sense. I think that people who are either narcissistic or co-dependent are particularly drawn to authoritarian religions. That’s not to say that everyone who is a member of Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism are either of those. But narcissists get off on the power and having minions, and co-dependents need to feel like a martyr and someone to tell them what to do.
Peter, I have done the same. Though current events have turned me from it. Back in March, my nostalgia took me to a church service. It was a rather other-worldly experience – as though guided by an “unseen hand.” However, that unseen hand was later to be discovered as my subconscious. I went because it wanted to show my conscious self something: that it, I, had outgrown the church. It was a bit unsettling at first with some confusion about the emptiness that was felt. But that emptiness was simply my unfamiliarity with the freedom I now had. Once I accepted the reality, it became quite comforting.
Ruth, I’d say you were simply afraid of the uncertainty knowledge brings. It’s not so much that knowledge itself is the object of man’s fear, but the meaning of knowledge and all the trappings that comes with it. As you say, once you are on the other side, you desire it more. Why? Because your comfort level rises in being free to simply live and be.
Nate and I have been having a discussion with a fundamentalist Baptist pastor. The pastor has repeatedly used the Bible as the necessary evidence for the veracity of the Bible. Nate and I both called him on this and asked him to please try to be a little more open-minded by looking at other “evidence”. His reply today is: his personal experiences convince him that his fundamentalist Christian beliefs are true and he has no intention of being “open-minded” on this.
I find this to be the bottom line argument for a lot of Christians: “My intense religious experiences and my feelings tell me I am right. I really don’t need any other evidence.”
I left this comment for the pastor today:
I don’t think that Pastor Bill has any interest whatsoever in being “open-minded”. His belief system has given him peace and stability for over 50 years. For that reason, he is not willing to even consider the possibility that his belief system might be wrong. There would be just too much to lose.
I think that this is something we atheists, agnostics, and other skeptics of the Bible should keep in mind: Not everyone wants to know the Truth. Many people, including many Christians, prefer being comfortable and having a sense of security over knowing the cold, hard, truth.
I think that is where Pastor Bill is.
I am the kind of person who could never be satisfied with committing to such an important belief system, without first having done the hard work to make sure that my beliefs hold up to vigorous scrutiny from those who hold opposing views, and, being as certain as is possible that my views are based on solid, verifiable evidence.
I cannot believe something just because it makes me feel good. And I definitely cannot, and will not, believe an ancient religious tale just because it makes me feel good…or, because its adherents threaten me with eternal torture if I do not.
Gary, I believe that some people cling to comfort out of the unfortunate business of childhood emotional wounds – just as addicts cling to drugs or alcohol in some ways. Rather than deal with the uncertainty that some unfortunate or series of unfortunate events created, we either construct or seek out coping mechanisms to help prop ourselves up, and the reason is simple: it’s easier to do so than deal with the wounds. Some of us have the fortune (or misfortune if from a different perspective) of repeating the same emotional trauma throughout our lives until we get it right, while others just continue to live in ignorance – obliterating those who might deconstruct the world we create for ourselves.
“…drastic disagreements challenge our thinking. If something is sure and true, it can withstand the most intense scrutiny.”
Surprisingly, that statement, as valid as it is, was written by Colorstorm, who has invalidated his own words of wisdom in every comment that he moderates and/or deletes because it disagrees with what he believes.
If Christians would keep these comforting and sense-of-security-inducing beliefs to themselves, we would probably all leave them alone. It is because so many Christians want so badly to force these superstition-based beliefs on the rest of us that we skeptics battle them as furiously as we do.
Not really.
The unkster at least has the intellect to be disingenuous, whereas Colorstorm just flings scripture like monkeys fling poo, he never tries to engage, even disingenuously. “And he made the stars also” is one of his favorites.
“If Christians would keep these comforting and sense-of-security-inducing beliefs to themselves, we would probably all leave them alone.” – I know I would. There must be thousands of Christian blogs out there, yet I have no interest in any of them until one of them comes onto the blog of one of my friends, to proselytize.
One of the hardest things is putting aside ‘intense religious experiences’. That was the aspect I found hardest to explain away once I started questioning my Christian faith. It was only when I started to appreciate a bit more about how the mind works that I came to understand these were internally generated, even though they appear to the recipient to be externally generated.
One thing that did help me was to note words of ‘prophecy’ given in church services. Over a period of time I came to see them fall into two categories. Either wring or so general as being the sort someone with a bit of knowledge could make up. The clincher was in February this year when I acted a ‘spiritual adviser’ at a Christian retreat. No-one knew that I was questioning my faith. A person came up to me with a word of knowledge God had revealed to them. I thought I had been caught out, but no. The word of knowledge was all about the wonderful ministry had planned for me!
The personal experiences thing was easier for me. I was lucky enough to be raised in a denomination that believed miracles didn’t happen any more. We believed that they were used by Christ and the apostles to demonstrate the “truth” of their claims, but once the New Testament was written, there was no more need of miracles. We usually pointed to 1 Cor 13 in support of this idea (“when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part will be done away”), but it’s admittedly kind of vague.
Anyway, since I didn’t believe they occurred and never experienced anything to make me think otherwise, all it really took was seeing that the Bible wasn’t inerrant. After that, everything kind of fell into place.
Just for clarification: that was totally meant as a joke – sort of a take on the whole, “you were never a TrueBeliever(TM),” thing. There are so many different flavors and they all think they’re the Ones. 😀
My version of Christianity believed in miracles, but not prophecy, tongues, or “healing”. We believed people could be healed but we didn’t believe anyone possessed the gift of healing. No sirree. No snake oil salesmen for us! All that died out with the apostles. God could do any miracle. Or not.
My version of Christianity believed in Adam and Eve, talking donkeys, global floods, and that the walls came tumbling down.
no ruth, you were demeaning my once held belief in nonsense… your previous affiliation to nonsense was better than mine, i get it….
i’m joking, in case the sarcasm wasnt clear.
we didnt believe that people worked miracles anymore, like nate said, and we didnt believe in original sin either. But we did think that god could heal someone if we prayed for it, we just realized that his typical response to such prayers was “no.”
“we didnt believe that people worked miracles anymore…we did think that god could heal someone if we prayed for it, we just realized that his typical response to such prayers was “no.”
That was pretty much the same as our belief. He did say “no” an awful lot.
My affiliation to nonsense was better than yours. The nonsense I was affiliated with was the really real nonsense.
It is sad to see very intelligent Christians constructing elaborate pseudo-scientific theories in their desperate attempts to justify their belief in ancient Christian superstitions. Remember when UnkleE stated that God probably “poofed” Jesus a Y chromosome? Here is another intelligent Christian trying to justify his belief in the Virgin Birth by promoting the theory that Jesus was a rare “XX male”:
I guess I didn’t really state my old position very well. I think my beliefs were pretty much the same as yours, Ruth. We didn’t think people could perform miracles anymore, or speak in tongues, prophesy, etc. But God could still perform miracles, of course. Not that we ever saw any. 😉
regarding the virgin birth, I still maintain that Isaiah wasnt speaking about a virgin, and certainly not one 700 years in the future. And I think Isaiah is pretty clear about that. They only way that Isaiah 7 and 8 become murky or “dual purpose” is when Matthew claims it was talking about jesus and when christians maintain that the NT must be right… just because, and they squeeze and pack until it looks like it fits good enough.
now, ignoring matthew, and reading only isaiah (with the proper translation), let’s see what makes the most sense.
That does sound pretty similar, Nate. We prayed. A lot. For God’s will to be done. It never seemed to be his will to do anything very miraculous. Then I decided that prayer must not be very effective. Or we weren’t very righteous. But if some of the people who I know as prayer warriors aren’t righteous enough no miracles will ever be done.
“the effectual fervent prayer of the righteous availeth much.”
I liked that one a lot, but it gives an easy out when your prayers do not avail much – the pray-er just isnt righteous enough. That way it’s their fault and not god’s.
“i’d like to help you, I really would, but my me, you’re just not righteous enough.”
Finding Truth 
Peter, that makes a lot of sense. I think that people who are either narcissistic or co-dependent are particularly drawn to authoritarian religions. That’s not to say that everyone who is a member of Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism are either of those. But narcissists get off on the power and having minions, and co-dependents need to feel like a martyr and someone to tell them what to do.
LikeLike
“The uncertainty of life was taken away.” – Much as in my chimp video, the alpha male allayed their anxieties.
LikeLike
Peter, I have done the same. Though current events have turned me from it. Back in March, my nostalgia took me to a church service. It was a rather other-worldly experience – as though guided by an “unseen hand.” However, that unseen hand was later to be discovered as my subconscious. I went because it wanted to show my conscious self something: that it, I, had outgrown the church. It was a bit unsettling at first with some confusion about the emptiness that was felt. But that emptiness was simply my unfamiliarity with the freedom I now had. Once I accepted the reality, it became quite comforting.
LikeLike
Ruth, I’d say you were simply afraid of the uncertainty knowledge brings. It’s not so much that knowledge itself is the object of man’s fear, but the meaning of knowledge and all the trappings that comes with it. As you say, once you are on the other side, you desire it more. Why? Because your comfort level rises in being free to simply live and be.
LikeLike
Nate and I have been having a discussion with a fundamentalist Baptist pastor. The pastor has repeatedly used the Bible as the necessary evidence for the veracity of the Bible. Nate and I both called him on this and asked him to please try to be a little more open-minded by looking at other “evidence”. His reply today is: his personal experiences convince him that his fundamentalist Christian beliefs are true and he has no intention of being “open-minded” on this.
I find this to be the bottom line argument for a lot of Christians: “My intense religious experiences and my feelings tell me I am right. I really don’t need any other evidence.”
I left this comment for the pastor today:
I don’t think that Pastor Bill has any interest whatsoever in being “open-minded”. His belief system has given him peace and stability for over 50 years. For that reason, he is not willing to even consider the possibility that his belief system might be wrong. There would be just too much to lose.
I think that this is something we atheists, agnostics, and other skeptics of the Bible should keep in mind: Not everyone wants to know the Truth. Many people, including many Christians, prefer being comfortable and having a sense of security over knowing the cold, hard, truth.
I think that is where Pastor Bill is.
I am the kind of person who could never be satisfied with committing to such an important belief system, without first having done the hard work to make sure that my beliefs hold up to vigorous scrutiny from those who hold opposing views, and, being as certain as is possible that my views are based on solid, verifiable evidence.
I cannot believe something just because it makes me feel good. And I definitely cannot, and will not, believe an ancient religious tale just because it makes me feel good…or, because its adherents threaten me with eternal torture if I do not.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Gary, I believe that some people cling to comfort out of the unfortunate business of childhood emotional wounds – just as addicts cling to drugs or alcohol in some ways. Rather than deal with the uncertainty that some unfortunate or series of unfortunate events created, we either construct or seek out coping mechanisms to help prop ourselves up, and the reason is simple: it’s easier to do so than deal with the wounds. Some of us have the fortune (or misfortune if from a different perspective) of repeating the same emotional trauma throughout our lives until we get it right, while others just continue to live in ignorance – obliterating those who might deconstruct the world we create for ourselves.
LikeLike
“…drastic disagreements challenge our thinking. If something is sure and true, it can withstand the most intense scrutiny.”
Surprisingly, that statement, as valid as it is, was written by Colorstorm, who has invalidated his own words of wisdom in every comment that he moderates and/or deletes because it disagrees with what he believes.
LikeLiked by 2 people
And is not unklee exactly the same?
LikeLike
If Christians would keep these comforting and sense-of-security-inducing beliefs to themselves, we would probably all leave them alone. It is because so many Christians want so badly to force these superstition-based beliefs on the rest of us that we skeptics battle them as furiously as we do.
LikeLiked by 2 people
“And is not unklee exactly the same?”
Not really.
The unkster at least has the intellect to be disingenuous, whereas Colorstorm just flings scripture like monkeys fling poo, he never tries to engage, even disingenuously. “And he made the stars also” is one of his favorites.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“If Christians would keep these comforting and sense-of-security-inducing beliefs to themselves, we would probably all leave them alone.” – I know I would. There must be thousands of Christian blogs out there, yet I have no interest in any of them until one of them comes onto the blog of one of my friends, to proselytize.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Gary
One of the hardest things is putting aside ‘intense religious experiences’. That was the aspect I found hardest to explain away once I started questioning my Christian faith. It was only when I started to appreciate a bit more about how the mind works that I came to understand these were internally generated, even though they appear to the recipient to be externally generated.
One thing that did help me was to note words of ‘prophecy’ given in church services. Over a period of time I came to see them fall into two categories. Either wring or so general as being the sort someone with a bit of knowledge could make up. The clincher was in February this year when I acted a ‘spiritual adviser’ at a Christian retreat. No-one knew that I was questioning my faith. A person came up to me with a word of knowledge God had revealed to them. I thought I had been caught out, but no. The word of knowledge was all about the wonderful ministry had planned for me!
LikeLiked by 1 person
The personal experiences thing was easier for me. I was lucky enough to be raised in a denomination that believed miracles didn’t happen any more. We believed that they were used by Christ and the apostles to demonstrate the “truth” of their claims, but once the New Testament was written, there was no more need of miracles. We usually pointed to 1 Cor 13 in support of this idea (“when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part will be done away”), but it’s admittedly kind of vague.
Anyway, since I didn’t believe they occurred and never experienced anything to make me think otherwise, all it really took was seeing that the Bible wasn’t inerrant. After that, everything kind of fell into place.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dang, Nate, you didn’t believe in miracles and you didn’t believe in Original Sin. What the heck kinda Christian were you? lol
LikeLiked by 2 people
“Wouldn’t the World Be Better if Everyone Behaved like a Christian?”
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/29335257/judd-plans-to-preach-in-uniform-despite-threat-of-lawsuit
so this is what is going on in my neighborhood.
LikeLike
whatever kinda Christian nate was, praise Kali he isn’t that kind of Christian anymore.
LikeLike
nate’s version of Christianity sounds remarkably similar to my own.
LikeLike
Just for clarification: that was totally meant as a joke – sort of a take on the whole, “you were never a TrueBeliever(TM),” thing. There are so many different flavors and they all think they’re the Ones. 😀
My version of Christianity believed in miracles, but not prophecy, tongues, or “healing”. We believed people could be healed but we didn’t believe anyone possessed the gift of healing. No sirree. No snake oil salesmen for us! All that died out with the apostles. God could do any miracle. Or not.
My version of Christianity believed in Adam and Eve, talking donkeys, global floods, and that the walls came tumbling down.
LikeLiked by 1 person
no ruth, you were demeaning my once held belief in nonsense… your previous affiliation to nonsense was better than mine, i get it….
i’m joking, in case the sarcasm wasnt clear.
we didnt believe that people worked miracles anymore, like nate said, and we didnt believe in original sin either. But we did think that god could heal someone if we prayed for it, we just realized that his typical response to such prayers was “no.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
“we didnt believe that people worked miracles anymore…we did think that god could heal someone if we prayed for it, we just realized that his typical response to such prayers was “no.”
That was pretty much the same as our belief. He did say “no” an awful lot.
My affiliation to nonsense was better than yours. The nonsense I was affiliated with was the really real nonsense.
LikeLiked by 2 people
It is sad to see very intelligent Christians constructing elaborate pseudo-scientific theories in their desperate attempts to justify their belief in ancient Christian superstitions. Remember when UnkleE stated that God probably “poofed” Jesus a Y chromosome? Here is another intelligent Christian trying to justify his belief in the Virgin Birth by promoting the theory that Jesus was a rare “XX male”:
http://accurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2012/12/scientific-evidence-for-virgin-birth-of.html
LikeLike
I guess I didn’t really state my old position very well. I think my beliefs were pretty much the same as yours, Ruth. We didn’t think people could perform miracles anymore, or speak in tongues, prophesy, etc. But God could still perform miracles, of course. Not that we ever saw any. 😉
LikeLiked by 2 people
regarding the virgin birth, I still maintain that Isaiah wasnt speaking about a virgin, and certainly not one 700 years in the future. And I think Isaiah is pretty clear about that. They only way that Isaiah 7 and 8 become murky or “dual purpose” is when Matthew claims it was talking about jesus and when christians maintain that the NT must be right… just because, and they squeeze and pack until it looks like it fits good enough.
now, ignoring matthew, and reading only isaiah (with the proper translation), let’s see what makes the most sense.
LikeLiked by 1 person
That does sound pretty similar, Nate. We prayed. A lot. For God’s will to be done. It never seemed to be his will to do anything very miraculous. Then I decided that prayer must not be very effective. Or we weren’t very righteous. But if some of the people who I know as prayer warriors aren’t righteous enough no miracles will ever be done.
LikeLiked by 2 people
“the effectual fervent prayer of the righteous availeth much.”
I liked that one a lot, but it gives an easy out when your prayers do not avail much – the pray-er just isnt righteous enough. That way it’s their fault and not god’s.
“i’d like to help you, I really would, but my me, you’re just not righteous enough.”
LikeLiked by 3 people