927 thoughts on “What Makes Something Right or Wrong?”
I agree with you, William. Isaiah did not prophesy about a virgin in the future. But even if he had, Jesus could not have been an “XX male” by a virgin birth. Even XX males must have a human father contributing one of the X alleles.
i agree with christians in that “IF” miracles were real, and “IF” the god of the bible was real, then him making himself a man in a virgin’s womb wouldn’t be out of the question.
it’s just that I cannot see how these “IFs” make it more plausible. we can “IF” anything all day long. so even “IF”, Isaiah still wasnt talking about a virgin or a woman and child 700 years away.
so “IF” everyone were smart and honest, we could be done with this. only IF.
i agree with christians in that ‘IF’ miracles were real, and ‘IF’ the god of the bible was real, then him making himself a man in a virgin’s womb wouldn’t be out of the question.
it’s just that I cannot see how these ‘IFs’ make it more plausible. we can ‘IF’ anything all day long. so even ‘IF’, Isaiah still wasnt talking about a virgin or a woman and child 700 years away.
so ‘IF’ everyone were smart and honest, we could be done with this. only IF.”
@William, for some unknown reason, every time I saw “IF” in quotes, my brain replaced it with “F***”i agree with christians in that “IF” miracles were real, and “IF” the god of the bible was real, then him making himself a man in a virgin’s womb wouldn’t be out of the question.
it’s just that I cannot see how these “IFs” make it more plausible. we can “IF” anything all day long. so even “IF”, Isaiah still wasnt talking about a virgin or a woman and child 700 years away.
so “IF” everyone were smart and honest, we could be done with this. only IF.
@William, I had to read what you said twice to make sure I read it right. At the first go, every “IF” you said was replaced by my eyes seeing “F***.” Can’t explain why…maybe it was divine inspiration!
I have been present at healing services when healing ‘miracles’ have occurred. The problem is I have not experienced anything I could certainly know was a miracle. People have claimed healing for various aliments but it is hard to know what really happened, as you are not their doctor you don’t know the before and after.
But I will make some observations, where I have a bit more knowledge:
– a person with Parkinson’s I knew was ‘healed’ he through away his walking stick and testified to the whole church. He could then walk without assistance – fast forward three months, no longer able to attend Church because of deterioration of his Parkinson disease;
– a girl with a finger she couldn’t bend, after prayer could bend it – fast forward a few months, could still bend it though it was stiff. This was at a small group meeting where I was one of three people who prayed. But what I wandered later was whether it was just a matter of giving her confidence to try to move the finger.
– a person (a very close friend of mine) with chronic damage to their knees, shoulders, ankles and back, plus an eye where the pupil would not alter size with light. They felt led to go forward for prayer, was ‘slain’ under the Spirit. When they got to their feet half an hour later. All the ailments appeared healed. — fast forward six months, the pupil in the eye was healed, it no changes with light. The other joint inflammations ended up only being temporary relief.
However even if there is a healing of some ailments do we know what caused it? The body may have greater self healing capacity then we fully understand? With eye healing I don’t understand what happened, but the problem had been experienced by the person for about a year before that, it had been caused by a virus. Perhaps the eye just needed a sort of jump start to get back to normal?
In the case of inflammatory type joint pain, studies have shown that certain mind reactions can cause significant temporary relief, something to do with the signals the brain sends to the nervous system. That seems to be what affected my friend, but it is not the same as healing.
I mentioned the three above cases because they were all situations where I knew the persons condition before and after.
That is three cases of questionable certainty. Should I then weigh that against the many, many (thousands) cases of concerted prayer that appeared to yield no result?
Importantly in all of these cases I told quite a few people about the miraculous healing I had seen. Later when the results seemed less sure I tended not to go back and correct the record.
I recall talking with a person who was seeking prayer for healing of some chronic conditions. They told me they had grown skeptical about ‘healing miracles’ because they had witnessed many apparent miracles but were yet to see a single case where the healing lasted.
and with healing, I doubt anyone has witness a withered arm or leg heal, or a missing leg or arm grow back. I doubt anyone has witnesses severe scars go away. Lots of sick kids with all sorts of nasty cancers and diseases, will they be healed?
right, right, god wishes he could heal them, but he needs the people praying for them to be very righteous first.
an impressive miracle would be to heal Steven Hawkins. to cure the disbeliever who everyone knows to be in bad, bad shape. I imagine that would convince Steve as well as a lot of others.
for god so loved the world that he hid himself from it, and delivered his own word as it were simply the claims of men. if this isnt a sign of a perfect god, what is?
No matter how many inconsistencies, discrepancies, and outright errors we present to the devout Christian about his inerrant belief system, he will always respond with, “God works in mysterious ways”.
What a perfect cover for a capricious, vindictive Being.
I used to say, and I always hear believers say now, “We’ll do what god says, not what man says…” and they fail to realize, as I did once upon a time, that at the very best, the bible is men saying things about god or what men said that god has said.
I know this point is very redundant from me, but I think it i so very much on point. There is no way to do what god said, as a christian, without first doing what man said. So to me, that means that christian faith is rooted in the claims of men; it has to be, before one could believe in the god they claim.
everyone in my large family is Christian and believes in miracle healings, yet everyone of them is sick with some disease that they have to see doctors. none of them are really being healed, they are just taking a lot of medication, still having the diseases. yet they insist that god works miracles and heals people through prayer.
makes no sense to me, but then again, none of it ever made any sense to me for as long as I can remember.
I have been watching the Yale University video series on the New Testament that Peter linked to above. The professor/historian presents some very interesting points. Here is what he says that we can know about the historical Jesus:
1. Jesus was a lower class, Jewish peasant.
2. Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet.
3. Jesus was probably originally a follower of John the Baptist.
4. Jesus was executed by the Romans for sedition, as the King of the Jews.
5. Jesus probably did cleanse the Temple and overthrow the money changers’ tables.
6. Jesus had twelve disciples.
7. Women were in Jesus’ inner circle.
8. Jesus never taught an end to the Jewish Law, just a more liberal version of it.
9. Unsure if Jesus taught that he was the Messiah.
makes no sense to me, but then again, none of it ever made any sense to me for as long as I can remember.
They just wanna have hope. Honestly hard to live without hope. I think as an atheist if I have some terminal illness and the docs tell me I have 1 year to live? I will just live out maybe 3 months of it and then off myself via charcoal burning before I lose my dignity.
@William, I’d agree with you. Unfortunately, it’s not the “F***” I’d prefer, however. The in-laws have been in my house for almost a week now, and which each passing moment, they stink more and more like dead fish. It’s like I’ve said before: In-laws are like herpes – they’re the gift that keeps on giving…
There is a bit of a history between me and my wife’s old man, one that’s not of the kindly sort. I’ve tried a number of times to make amends for it, or tried to relate better, but it’s just not worth it now.
powellpowers, I was diagnosed with hiv in 1985 and was told I had a year, maybe a year and a half if I were “lucky”. for many years after that I would still hear, oh, you may have a year to live. for 20yrs I never got sick, nor did my viral load or t cell count ever get into bad numbers. i refused to take any of the hiv meds that were offered to me.
what did I do all of that time? PARTY MY ASS OFF.
in 2006 I became seriously ill and was told it was unlikely I would outlive the month. my doctor (a Christian woman) told me I needed to find something to hope for to live. so I did. “REVENGE” lol.
30 yrs later,obviously I have recovered, I now take the meds,
and I don’t really have to exact my revenge as I watch those around me that used to torment me, I get to see their lives fall apart by their own doings.
my doctor says god must have special purpose for me as it is a “miracle” that I lived.
isn’t that ironic,
I never prayed for one.
Paul, that’s incredible. I had no idea you had HIV. You’d think that with someone who beats the odds to the extent that you seem to have, that they’d be studying you to find out why that was.
Of course, I dont stay up on this topic, so I could be way off. I’m certainly glad you’re doing well.
“Speaking of miracles, I do find it a miracle that my wife somehow sprang from their loins!” – Barry, you know as well as I do, that evolution predicts mutations – no miracle required.
I thought everyone knew Paulie’s story, he told it last year, during our “Kathy Summer” – speaking of which, today, we hit the 200th new member since that close encounter of the strange kind.
I knew that the Christian right would make this about christian persecution. Thursday on the 700 club pat Robertson also said this was about the persecution of Christians. same thing on my local Christian radio station.
@SaintPaulieGirl and Peter, I’ve seen both on my Facebook wall. Damn ridiculous tragedy how Fox is spinning it. Worse is that people like my parents (and in-laws) will actually buy the BS.
Finding Truth 
I agree with you, William. Isaiah did not prophesy about a virgin in the future. But even if he had, Jesus could not have been an “XX male” by a virgin birth. Even XX males must have a human father contributing one of the X alleles.
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Now, y’all. Jesus wasn’t just a man. He was God, too. It was the God part that was masculine. That Holy Ghost has some mojo.
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i agree with christians in that “IF” miracles were real, and “IF” the god of the bible was real, then him making himself a man in a virgin’s womb wouldn’t be out of the question.
it’s just that I cannot see how these “IFs” make it more plausible. we can “IF” anything all day long. so even “IF”, Isaiah still wasnt talking about a virgin or a woman and child 700 years away.
so “IF” everyone were smart and honest, we could be done with this. only IF.
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@Ruth
Carter’s Law of Prayer:
“As time goes on, a person learns to pray for only those things which will likely happen anyway.“
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i agree with christians in that ‘IF’ miracles were real, and ‘IF’ the god of the bible was real, then him making himself a man in a virgin’s womb wouldn’t be out of the question.
it’s just that I cannot see how these ‘IFs’ make it more plausible. we can ‘IF’ anything all day long. so even ‘IF’, Isaiah still wasnt talking about a virgin or a woman and child 700 years away.
so ‘IF’ everyone were smart and honest, we could be done with this. only IF.”
@William, for some unknown reason, every time I saw “IF” in quotes, my brain replaced it with “F***”i agree with christians in that “IF” miracles were real, and “IF” the god of the bible was real, then him making himself a man in a virgin’s womb wouldn’t be out of the question.
it’s just that I cannot see how these “IFs” make it more plausible. we can “IF” anything all day long. so even “IF”, Isaiah still wasnt talking about a virgin or a woman and child 700 years away.
so “IF” everyone were smart and honest, we could be done with this. only IF.
@William, I had to read what you said twice to make sure I read it right. At the first go, every “IF” you said was replaced by my eyes seeing “F***.” Can’t explain why…maybe it was divine inspiration!
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I have been present at healing services when healing ‘miracles’ have occurred. The problem is I have not experienced anything I could certainly know was a miracle. People have claimed healing for various aliments but it is hard to know what really happened, as you are not their doctor you don’t know the before and after.
But I will make some observations, where I have a bit more knowledge:
– a person with Parkinson’s I knew was ‘healed’ he through away his walking stick and testified to the whole church. He could then walk without assistance – fast forward three months, no longer able to attend Church because of deterioration of his Parkinson disease;
– a girl with a finger she couldn’t bend, after prayer could bend it – fast forward a few months, could still bend it though it was stiff. This was at a small group meeting where I was one of three people who prayed. But what I wandered later was whether it was just a matter of giving her confidence to try to move the finger.
– a person (a very close friend of mine) with chronic damage to their knees, shoulders, ankles and back, plus an eye where the pupil would not alter size with light. They felt led to go forward for prayer, was ‘slain’ under the Spirit. When they got to their feet half an hour later. All the ailments appeared healed. — fast forward six months, the pupil in the eye was healed, it no changes with light. The other joint inflammations ended up only being temporary relief.
However even if there is a healing of some ailments do we know what caused it? The body may have greater self healing capacity then we fully understand? With eye healing I don’t understand what happened, but the problem had been experienced by the person for about a year before that, it had been caused by a virus. Perhaps the eye just needed a sort of jump start to get back to normal?
In the case of inflammatory type joint pain, studies have shown that certain mind reactions can cause significant temporary relief, something to do with the signals the brain sends to the nervous system. That seems to be what affected my friend, but it is not the same as healing.
I mentioned the three above cases because they were all situations where I knew the persons condition before and after.
That is three cases of questionable certainty. Should I then weigh that against the many, many (thousands) cases of concerted prayer that appeared to yield no result?
Importantly in all of these cases I told quite a few people about the miraculous healing I had seen. Later when the results seemed less sure I tended not to go back and correct the record.
I recall talking with a person who was seeking prayer for healing of some chronic conditions. They told me they had grown skeptical about ‘healing miracles’ because they had witnessed many apparent miracles but were yet to see a single case where the healing lasted.
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barry, your subconscious may be telling you something
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and with healing, I doubt anyone has witness a withered arm or leg heal, or a missing leg or arm grow back. I doubt anyone has witnesses severe scars go away. Lots of sick kids with all sorts of nasty cancers and diseases, will they be healed?
right, right, god wishes he could heal them, but he needs the people praying for them to be very righteous first.
an impressive miracle would be to heal Steven Hawkins. to cure the disbeliever who everyone knows to be in bad, bad shape. I imagine that would convince Steve as well as a lot of others.
for god so loved the world that he hid himself from it, and delivered his own word as it were simply the claims of men. if this isnt a sign of a perfect god, what is?
LikeLiked by 2 people
No matter how many inconsistencies, discrepancies, and outright errors we present to the devout Christian about his inerrant belief system, he will always respond with, “God works in mysterious ways”.
What a perfect cover for a capricious, vindictive Being.
LikeLiked by 2 people
it’s the story of the “Emperor’s New Clothes.”
I used to say, and I always hear believers say now, “We’ll do what god says, not what man says…” and they fail to realize, as I did once upon a time, that at the very best, the bible is men saying things about god or what men said that god has said.
I know this point is very redundant from me, but I think it i so very much on point. There is no way to do what god said, as a christian, without first doing what man said. So to me, that means that christian faith is rooted in the claims of men; it has to be, before one could believe in the god they claim.
LikeLiked by 2 people
everyone in my large family is Christian and believes in miracle healings, yet everyone of them is sick with some disease that they have to see doctors. none of them are really being healed, they are just taking a lot of medication, still having the diseases. yet they insist that god works miracles and heals people through prayer.
makes no sense to me, but then again, none of it ever made any sense to me for as long as I can remember.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I have been watching the Yale University video series on the New Testament that Peter linked to above. The professor/historian presents some very interesting points. Here is what he says that we can know about the historical Jesus:
1. Jesus was a lower class, Jewish peasant.
2. Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet.
3. Jesus was probably originally a follower of John the Baptist.
4. Jesus was executed by the Romans for sedition, as the King of the Jews.
5. Jesus probably did cleanse the Temple and overthrow the money changers’ tables.
6. Jesus had twelve disciples.
7. Women were in Jesus’ inner circle.
8. Jesus never taught an end to the Jewish Law, just a more liberal version of it.
9. Unsure if Jesus taught that he was the Messiah.
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@SPG
makes no sense to me, but then again, none of it ever made any sense to me for as long as I can remember.
They just wanna have hope. Honestly hard to live without hope. I think as an atheist if I have some terminal illness and the docs tell me I have 1 year to live? I will just live out maybe 3 months of it and then off myself via charcoal burning before I lose my dignity.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@William, I’d agree with you. Unfortunately, it’s not the “F***” I’d prefer, however. The in-laws have been in my house for almost a week now, and which each passing moment, they stink more and more like dead fish. It’s like I’ve said before: In-laws are like herpes – they’re the gift that keeps on giving…
There is a bit of a history between me and my wife’s old man, one that’s not of the kindly sort. I’ve tried a number of times to make amends for it, or tried to relate better, but it’s just not worth it now.
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powellpowers, I was diagnosed with hiv in 1985 and was told I had a year, maybe a year and a half if I were “lucky”. for many years after that I would still hear, oh, you may have a year to live. for 20yrs I never got sick, nor did my viral load or t cell count ever get into bad numbers. i refused to take any of the hiv meds that were offered to me.
what did I do all of that time? PARTY MY ASS OFF.
in 2006 I became seriously ill and was told it was unlikely I would outlive the month. my doctor (a Christian woman) told me I needed to find something to hope for to live. so I did. “REVENGE” lol.
30 yrs later,obviously I have recovered, I now take the meds,
and I don’t really have to exact my revenge as I watch those around me that used to torment me, I get to see their lives fall apart by their own doings.
my doctor says god must have special purpose for me as it is a “miracle” that I lived.
isn’t that ironic,
I never prayed for one.
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barry, lol… i’m sorry.
i dont like my in-laws either. i can tolerate them, but it is test of endurance and will.
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Paul, that’s incredible. I had no idea you had HIV. You’d think that with someone who beats the odds to the extent that you seem to have, that they’d be studying you to find out why that was.
Of course, I dont stay up on this topic, so I could be way off. I’m certainly glad you’re doing well.
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@William, yes. I agree. Speaking of miracles, I do find it a miracle that my wife somehow sprang from their loins!
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and who can deny such a miracle? praise be to allah and jebus.
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“Speaking of miracles, I do find it a miracle that my wife somehow sprang from their loins!” – Barry, you know as well as I do, that evolution predicts mutations – no miracle required.
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@SPG
Damn you are one strong m***********
I honestly don’t think I’ll have as much mental fortitude as you. Glad that you are mostly ok now.
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I thought everyone knew Paulie’s story, he told it last year, during our “Kathy Summer” – speaking of which, today, we hit the 200th new member since that close encounter of the strange kind.
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Fox News hosts have been heavily playing down the racial hate crime aspect of the shooting at an African Methodist Episcopal church in Charleston, South Carolina, last night, instead suggesting that the shooting was just another case of anti-Christian persecution in America, a recurring theme on the network. – See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/fox-news-contributor-links-charleston-shooting-abortion-rights-downplays-hate-crime-aspect#sthash.ZBPlbUdG.dpuf
I knew that the Christian right would make this about christian persecution. Thursday on the 700 club pat Robertson also said this was about the persecution of Christians. same thing on my local Christian radio station.
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Peter Enns comments on this on his blog. He links to a post by Jon Stewart, who really nails it. Stewart’s view is that the Americans government will do whatever it takes to stop foreigners killing Americans, but nothing of substance to stop Americans killing each other.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2015/06/jon-stewart-on-the-charleston-shooting-sort-of-like-a-prophet/
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@SaintPaulieGirl and Peter, I’ve seen both on my Facebook wall. Damn ridiculous tragedy how Fox is spinning it. Worse is that people like my parents (and in-laws) will actually buy the BS.
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