I actually take comfort in the fact that Yahweh doesn’t exist.
I used to always be in great fear that God would punish me for something by killing one of my children (my fundamentalist pastors used that “big stick” a lot in their sermons to keep the ‘flock’ in line), or, even kill one of my children for no good reason other than to test my faith. So, in other words, no matter how obedient and faithful to Yahweh I might be, he STILL might kill my children…just because it is his “will”.
Now, as an agnostic/atheist, I accept the fact that I live in a dangerous world and that every day is a roll of the dice. I and/or my children could be killed at any moment. But if that happens, I have the small comfort that the horrible tragedy that has happened to me was NOT caused by some capricious god, but just by blind chance.
Gary, your comment about the great fear of god(s) made me feel rather sick. Well, sad too. It just serves to highlight the negativity associated with religion. That ‘never-feeling-worthy-enough’ sentiment has been expressed so many ways on blogs I’ve read; it makes me really wonder about the believers who still cling to it. Can’t they realize how self-defeating it is?? How can they possibly see this as a mark of redemption?? … Sigh….
We had a young preacher a few years ago in our church who was rather pious (maybe it was just because he was young, I don’t know) but he and I were together, just the two of us, heading back from a meeting. The subject of death came up, and he started sermonizing about life in the hereafter and I said, “Tony, as far as I concerned, when you’re dead, you’re dead. End of story!” Poor guy was driving and I he recoiled as if I’d struck him! I thought he might cry, and he didn’t say much. I realized my big mistake that next Sunday, however, when the congregation was presented with a rather accusatory sermon, all about HIS idea of life with Jesus in the sweet by-and-by… I tried not to make eye contact as I knew just who he was directing THAT message to… 🙂
Oopsie… Just so everyone knows I was the one who was mistaken .. And of course, Arch is not a dork…but it was still funny…and considering some of the insults I’ve read online you gotta admit that dork is pretty mild. 🙂
Gary, I am more and more convinced that one’s experience of Christianity partly reflects one’s underlying personality. Those who are of an introspective nature tend to find it a far more difficult experience than others. My rationale is that it is the introspective person who takes seriously the instruction to examine oneself. An introspective person looks inside themselves and sees much that is not ideal and beat themselves up as a result.
The fear of hell I think tortures the introspective person, even when a Christian as they struggle to reconcile who they actually are with the type of person the Bible tells them they should be as a Christian. This makes them doubt whether are a Christian at all and the fear of hell resurfaces. Pastors often come across people who everyone in a Church see as a model Christian, yet that person aware of their secret weaknesses can doubt it themselves.
good comment, peter. when I was a chirstian, i wondered if I’d measure up and how good was good enough, etc. Eventually i tried to quit thinking about heaven or hell. I determined that everyone deserved hell, and that it would gracious to save anyone from it. I didnt know where i’d go, and i decided that didnt matter – instead I focused on Justice.
I thought that God was just, and I was content to let justice fall on myself and others.
and I tried to focus on doing good for good’s sake, while trying to leave motives based on eternal rewards or punishments which seemed self serving.
either way, i still spend a lot of time in self examination, I just feel freer now, and finally unblind.
G Campbell Morgan, who preached at Westminster Tabernacle for 30 years (the predecessor to Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones) said that the biggest pastoral issue he faced was with people who were convinced they had committed the unpardonable sin. From a pastoral perspective he would argue the fact the person was concerned about it was almost certain evidence that they had not committed such a sin.
When I was still a Christian preacher I would try to ‘challenge the comfortable’ and ‘comfort the challenged’, not an easy task to do in the same message. The real problem is if you the effect is the other way around. Ironic as it may be, the last sermon I preached in my Church was about doubting Thomas. I spoke from my heart, without letting people know that my faith had crumbled, I was interested to note how so many people found that talk helpful, I suspect doubt is quite common in the pews.
The whole concept of an unforgivable sin has caused consternation for theologians and angst for earnest Christians for two thousand years..
Peter, from my perspective – coming from my days as a youth minister, and then associate pastor – the young are far more at ease with questioning the philosophical pillars of their faith. No doctrine is sacred enough to not be challenged and I found that refreshing. I am of course only referring to a majority as there were pockets of young folks who refused, but they had one key difference than many others: there parents were far more authoritarian and controlling. The more controlling, the more you could tell that the child’s life was not their own, but their parents.
As for adults, there was way too much fear and defensiveness when it came to challenging the core of their faith system. My guess was that if they did question it, they were quick to throw up a defensive wall in order to hide their doubt. I do believe that their doubt is what causes them fear, and in turn creates the vitriol and closed mindedness with which they live towards others.
Arch, on a personal note, I think my mom is quietly concerned about my salvation. I am noticing and uptick in her references to God when she speaks to me ever since she and I had our last conversation about Jesus and the church. She also leaves small notes of prayer on my Facebook posts, such as she did yesterday.
I posted that the radiator on my car had cracked and the cost of repair was half the value of the car [$600 repair (mostly labor cost) versus $1200 value]. My wife and I were planning on a new vehicle soon, but the car made the decision for us sooner than later. When I mentioned I was out car shopping yesterday because of the cracked radiator, my mom posted this:
“Thank you, God, for getting them to a good reliable vehicle for the price they can afford.”
Passive enough. I’ve suspected my assertions have made her uncomfortable. It also doesn’t help that I’m a bit of a blacksheep when it comes to family.
“Thank you, God, for getting them to a good reliable vehicle for the price they can afford.”
I know it’s your mom, but me being me, I would have written – “Mom, you could really save us some money if you’d just ask him to heal the radiator —”
That moment when your brain leads you to something so brilliant that you are forced to stay up to jot down the main thrust of the story, just to silence the fear of not remembering it once you wake up in the morning – that and you might as well otherwise you find yourself sleepless in bed. I just had one of those moments. Luckily, I can go to bed now.
I ran across something, Barry and Peter (and anyone else interested), that raised an eyebrow. Bart Ehrman and others agree that Thessalonians II was a forgery, written after the death of Paul, but that Thess I was authentic. However I must question a passage – tell me what you think:
In Thess I, 2:14-16 [KJV], Paul says,
14) For ye, brethern, became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16) Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the utmost.
There was no wide-spread persecution of Christians in the Middle East (bear in mind, Thessalonia was a city in Greece, in the province of Macedonia, not exactly the Levant), and the “wrath” the author appears to have been describing could only have been the 72 CE destruction of Jerusalem, but Paul died in 68 – don’t those verses seem like an insertion?
Still on my Minchin binge – I’d like to dedicate this piece specifically to Paulie, who I know will appreciate it, and may choose to make it his anthem —
Arch, I would have to say no in reference to your post on 1 Thess. My professors, as well as my studies, concluded that while persecution was not wide spread, the early Christians of Jerusalem did face some form of disdain. Orthodox Jews initially tolerated other Jews keen on Jesus as Christ, but as time went on, they became seen as a nuisance to Judaism and were then treated as such. Thus, the Christians in Jerusalem became socially ostracized to a degree. By the time 72 rolled around, the destruction of the temple may have led to further disdain between the two groups because, while Jews were keen on defending the city, many Christians are believed to have left before Rome sacked the place. This would have increased hostility of the Jews towards Christians, and then later with Rome as Christians would have become more of a problem for Rome as the Jews were dispersed from Roman Palestine. This is, of course, based on my memory of the material, so there might be some discrepancy with regards to accuracy. Thus, my guess is that Paul is saying “Don’t worry. Their disdain for our Lord is heaping hot coals on their head, and soon they will cause their own destruction.” Sort of a reference to “karma is a bitch” from my perspective.
That’s a nice catch, arch. I can see where “persecuted us” is probably talking about the persecution early Christians had gotten from the Jews. Maybe even the “Judaizing teachers” that Paul so often railed against. But verse 16 is interesting…
This commentary says that verse 16 may have been a later interpolation referring back to the destruction of Jerusalem. So the rest of the book may have been written by Paul, and this was just a later addition.
Pretty interesting. BibleHub has several commentaries about the verse here, but I haven’t read them all yet.
Finding Truth 
i think on this often, and i cant help but suspect fear is a part of it, if not the leading factor.
fear of hell.
fear of being mistaken when there’s such huge stages.
fear of being arrogant enough to question god.
fear of being rejected as unworthy by a loving a gracious god-father
LikeLiked by 1 person
I actually take comfort in the fact that Yahweh doesn’t exist.
I used to always be in great fear that God would punish me for something by killing one of my children (my fundamentalist pastors used that “big stick” a lot in their sermons to keep the ‘flock’ in line), or, even kill one of my children for no good reason other than to test my faith. So, in other words, no matter how obedient and faithful to Yahweh I might be, he STILL might kill my children…just because it is his “will”.
Now, as an agnostic/atheist, I accept the fact that I live in a dangerous world and that every day is a roll of the dice. I and/or my children could be killed at any moment. But if that happens, I have the small comfort that the horrible tragedy that has happened to me was NOT caused by some capricious god, but just by blind chance.
I now sleep much better at night.
LikeLiked by 2 people
It is fear. That is the primary motivation. The proverbial question “what if…” hangs over their head, and they are too afraid to address it.
LikeLiked by 1 person
It’s funny, Gary, but my wife and I feel exactly the same way. Death makes so much more sense to me now.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Gary, your comment about the great fear of god(s) made me feel rather sick. Well, sad too. It just serves to highlight the negativity associated with religion. That ‘never-feeling-worthy-enough’ sentiment has been expressed so many ways on blogs I’ve read; it makes me really wonder about the believers who still cling to it. Can’t they realize how self-defeating it is?? How can they possibly see this as a mark of redemption?? … Sigh….
We had a young preacher a few years ago in our church who was rather pious (maybe it was just because he was young, I don’t know) but he and I were together, just the two of us, heading back from a meeting. The subject of death came up, and he started sermonizing about life in the hereafter and I said, “Tony, as far as I concerned, when you’re dead, you’re dead. End of story!” Poor guy was driving and I he recoiled as if I’d struck him! I thought he might cry, and he didn’t say much. I realized my big mistake that next Sunday, however, when the congregation was presented with a rather accusatory sermon, all about HIS idea of life with Jesus in the sweet by-and-by… I tried not to make eye contact as I knew just who he was directing THAT message to… 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
“Dork” here – I SO wish I’d been there –! Laugh? I thought I’d cry, I thought my pants would never dry!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Oopsie… Just so everyone knows I was the one who was mistaken .. And of course, Arch is not a dork…but it was still funny…and considering some of the insults I’ve read online you gotta admit that dork is pretty mild. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Luvsya, BabyGirl, like a sistah from another mother —
LikeLiked by 1 person
Gary, I am more and more convinced that one’s experience of Christianity partly reflects one’s underlying personality. Those who are of an introspective nature tend to find it a far more difficult experience than others. My rationale is that it is the introspective person who takes seriously the instruction to examine oneself. An introspective person looks inside themselves and sees much that is not ideal and beat themselves up as a result.
The fear of hell I think tortures the introspective person, even when a Christian as they struggle to reconcile who they actually are with the type of person the Bible tells them they should be as a Christian. This makes them doubt whether are a Christian at all and the fear of hell resurfaces. Pastors often come across people who everyone in a Church see as a model Christian, yet that person aware of their secret weaknesses can doubt it themselves.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Too bad I can’t click “like” more than once, Peter. I couldn’t agree more with your comment.
LikeLike
good comment, peter. when I was a chirstian, i wondered if I’d measure up and how good was good enough, etc. Eventually i tried to quit thinking about heaven or hell. I determined that everyone deserved hell, and that it would gracious to save anyone from it. I didnt know where i’d go, and i decided that didnt matter – instead I focused on Justice.
I thought that God was just, and I was content to let justice fall on myself and others.
and I tried to focus on doing good for good’s sake, while trying to leave motives based on eternal rewards or punishments which seemed self serving.
either way, i still spend a lot of time in self examination, I just feel freer now, and finally unblind.
LikeLiked by 1 person
G Campbell Morgan, who preached at Westminster Tabernacle for 30 years (the predecessor to Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones) said that the biggest pastoral issue he faced was with people who were convinced they had committed the unpardonable sin. From a pastoral perspective he would argue the fact the person was concerned about it was almost certain evidence that they had not committed such a sin.
When I was still a Christian preacher I would try to ‘challenge the comfortable’ and ‘comfort the challenged’, not an easy task to do in the same message. The real problem is if you the effect is the other way around. Ironic as it may be, the last sermon I preached in my Church was about doubting Thomas. I spoke from my heart, without letting people know that my faith had crumbled, I was interested to note how so many people found that talk helpful, I suspect doubt is quite common in the pews.
The whole concept of an unforgivable sin has caused consternation for theologians and angst for earnest Christians for two thousand years..
LikeLiked by 1 person
Peter, from my perspective – coming from my days as a youth minister, and then associate pastor – the young are far more at ease with questioning the philosophical pillars of their faith. No doctrine is sacred enough to not be challenged and I found that refreshing. I am of course only referring to a majority as there were pockets of young folks who refused, but they had one key difference than many others: there parents were far more authoritarian and controlling. The more controlling, the more you could tell that the child’s life was not their own, but their parents.
As for adults, there was way too much fear and defensiveness when it came to challenging the core of their faith system. My guess was that if they did question it, they were quick to throw up a defensive wall in order to hide their doubt. I do believe that their doubt is what causes them fear, and in turn creates the vitriol and closed mindedness with which they live towards others.
Arch, on a personal note, I think my mom is quietly concerned about my salvation. I am noticing and uptick in her references to God when she speaks to me ever since she and I had our last conversation about Jesus and the church. She also leaves small notes of prayer on my Facebook posts, such as she did yesterday.
I posted that the radiator on my car had cracked and the cost of repair was half the value of the car [$600 repair (mostly labor cost) versus $1200 value]. My wife and I were planning on a new vehicle soon, but the car made the decision for us sooner than later. When I mentioned I was out car shopping yesterday because of the cracked radiator, my mom posted this:
“Thank you, God, for getting them to a good reliable vehicle for the price they can afford.”
Passive enough. I’ve suspected my assertions have made her uncomfortable. It also doesn’t help that I’m a bit of a blacksheep when it comes to family.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Thank you, God, for getting them to a good reliable vehicle for the price they can afford.”
I know it’s your mom, but me being me, I would have written – “Mom, you could really save us some money if you’d just ask him to heal the radiator —”
LikeLiked by 1 person
BAHAHAHA!!!
LikeLike
Hysterical, Arch!
LikeLike
Minchin never fails to crack me up!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Arch, remember, God works in mysterious ways!
LikeLike
That moment when your brain leads you to something so brilliant that you are forced to stay up to jot down the main thrust of the story, just to silence the fear of not remembering it once you wake up in the morning – that and you might as well otherwise you find yourself sleepless in bed. I just had one of those moments. Luckily, I can go to bed now.
LikeLike
Buenos nachos —
LikeLiked by 1 person
I ran across something, Barry and Peter (and anyone else interested), that raised an eyebrow. Bart Ehrman and others agree that Thessalonians II was a forgery, written after the death of Paul, but that Thess I was authentic. However I must question a passage – tell me what you think:
In Thess I, 2:14-16 [KJV], Paul says,
There was no wide-spread persecution of Christians in the Middle East (bear in mind, Thessalonia was a city in Greece, in the province of Macedonia, not exactly the Levant), and the “wrath” the author appears to have been describing could only have been the 72 CE destruction of Jerusalem, but Paul died in 68 – don’t those verses seem like an insertion?
LikeLike
Some of you may want to check this out: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/1thessalonians.html
LikeLike
Still on my Minchin binge – I’d like to dedicate this piece specifically to Paulie, who I know will appreciate it, and may choose to make it his anthem —
LikeLike
Arch, I would have to say no in reference to your post on 1 Thess. My professors, as well as my studies, concluded that while persecution was not wide spread, the early Christians of Jerusalem did face some form of disdain. Orthodox Jews initially tolerated other Jews keen on Jesus as Christ, but as time went on, they became seen as a nuisance to Judaism and were then treated as such. Thus, the Christians in Jerusalem became socially ostracized to a degree. By the time 72 rolled around, the destruction of the temple may have led to further disdain between the two groups because, while Jews were keen on defending the city, many Christians are believed to have left before Rome sacked the place. This would have increased hostility of the Jews towards Christians, and then later with Rome as Christians would have become more of a problem for Rome as the Jews were dispersed from Roman Palestine. This is, of course, based on my memory of the material, so there might be some discrepancy with regards to accuracy. Thus, my guess is that Paul is saying “Don’t worry. Their disdain for our Lord is heaping hot coals on their head, and soon they will cause their own destruction.” Sort of a reference to “karma is a bitch” from my perspective.
LikeLike
That’s a nice catch, arch. I can see where “persecuted us” is probably talking about the persecution early Christians had gotten from the Jews. Maybe even the “Judaizing teachers” that Paul so often railed against. But verse 16 is interesting…
This commentary says that verse 16 may have been a later interpolation referring back to the destruction of Jerusalem. So the rest of the book may have been written by Paul, and this was just a later addition.
Pretty interesting. BibleHub has several commentaries about the verse here, but I haven’t read them all yet.
LikeLike