927 thoughts on “What Makes Something Right or Wrong?”
I feel your frustration, Paul.
And I really feel for you for what you have suffered due to your family. I think we all understand why you have such strong feelings against conservative/fundamentalist Christians.
“Of course there are prophetesses in acts and no prohibition from preaching in general (you are alluding to particular church meetings related to teaching). get up off your lazy rear end and look it up without commanding me to give you chapter and verse. You are the one claiming to tell me what the Bible teaches”
1 cor 14 is in the context of spiritual gifts, and verse 34 is speaking to women who prophesy.
they were told that they were not to speak in the churches.
there was a time and a place, the woman’s time was more restricted than that of a man – again, not equal.
“When you can show me that being equal means my Wife has the same body parts that I do, she has to have my physical strength, I have to have her emotional sensitivity and we both must have identical emotional and social skills then you can BEGIN to make an argument that us having different roles to play means one is better or greater tan the other.” – ABlacksmanagain
I have no intention of inspecting your wife’s body parts.
and body parts is not what I’m talking about.
men and women are different, of course, and I, at least, am not bothered by that. But if you can show me how limitations in speaking and teaching for a woman is equal to no such restrictions for a man, then we have something…
and if love means submission, then why command them differently? why say to one, “submit” and to the other “love.” they’re not the same.
Does christ submit to the church or does the church submit to christ? are the two equal, in your mind?
“. Of course, for those who’ve been around long enough, as soon as one of his comments is read – no matter how creative he is with his ‘handle’ – he’s instantly identified. ”
Just so you know Marvin Carmen is being quite the liar there (proving his own lack of morality). MY previous name was ablacksman. As you see from the present name there was not the slightest “creativity” to hide anything and It was I who announced I was back due to the blog owner not abiding by an agreement not to have his groupies discuss me on his blog.
I was raised in a very pragmatic Christian church, the Salvation Army. They’re the ones who showed up with coffee for firefighters and service men. They also ran alcohol treatment programs, homes for unwed mothers, distributed donated clothing, provided temporary housing for transits, and so forth.
They are an offshoot of the Methodist. I take my 94 year old mother to the local Methodist church. They too have programs to aid the poor and participate in a multi-denominational program that provides overnight housing for the homeless in the winter.
The church of my choice, the Unitarian Universalists, also participates in the overnight housing program.
Many Christian churches take seriously Jesus’s call to feed the poor, tend to the sick, and visit the prisoner. But, every church comes with its own baggage of creeds and sins.
Oh. Almost forgot. The Epicopal church made Gene Robinson the first openly gay bishop.
Underlying these is the Christian message of love, not only for you neighbor, but for the despised (Samaritans) and even your enemy.
And it is the cultivation of that love for others that is a positive contribution to the social community.
So I never consider another moral person my enemy, but rather a potential ally as we move progressively to a better future for everyone.
“I have no intention of inspecting your wife’s body parts.”
Even if she were single you would never get the opportunity. Its pretty much the same “no, get lost weirdo” answer you get from all women.
” But if you can show me how limitations in speaking and teaching for a woman is equal to no such restrictions for a man, then we have something…”
You make no conditions. Its you that need to show why role differences mean that men and women are not equal. When you can’t rebut a point all you do is demand another answer. Play that game with others not me. I know you too well
MY wife has the role of having children that I don’t . how does that equate to us being unequal. answer or run away again..
“2) I just looked through only two of Nate’s ‘back threads’ – you were Mike Anthony on one and TBlacksman on another, and now you’ve ‘morphed’ again.
Who’s the liar??”
You are. I was never banned under Mike anthony. I lost my logins and changed to Blacksman and announced that as well before any ban. Plus I announced to this board I was back from the very first time under this username so you are not only a liar you wax in ignorance as well..
Mike, whether YOU accept it or not, most people (women in particular) have typically found the idea of not getting to speak in church a sign that they are undervalued.
Apparently Mike doesn’t realize that a person can be mistaken without being a liar.
Carmen’s overall point is pretty valid: Mike is an abrasive guy who has gotten himself banned before. He’s now come back under a different name (though didn’t attempt to hide who he was), and I haven’t banned him yet.
Thanks for the great comments, and welcome to the blog! I appreciate what you’ve had to say so far, and your view sounds pretty similar to my own.
It’s true that I don’t really moderate this blog very much. Honestly, until about a year ago, it was never an issue. I’ve never been a huge fan of moderated blogs for two reasons:
1) It slows down conversation, since you often have to wait for comments to be approved.
2) It makes people suspicious about the quality of the conversation. They wonder if people are sometimes silenced just because they disagree with the blog’s author.
I really do want this blog to be about “finding truth.” Not to say I have it — I may be wrong. But that’s why I value open dialog on these topics. I wish that it stayed more cordial than it sometimes does, and I struggle a bit on how to deal with those warring goals.
Anyway, please feel free to hang around and weigh in on anything that catches your interest!
“Its you that need to show why role differences mean that men and women are not equal. When you can’t rebut a point all you do is demand another answer. Play that game with others not me.” – ABlacksmanagain
you keep saying that it’s not unequal because you cant breastfeed and your wife has babies. I agree and keep saying that no one but you is speaking about that. what i am talking about, again, is when women cant teach men, but men can teach women; and men can speak in church, but women cannot, and that the woman is to submit to the husband, but not the other way around.
these are pretty clear distinctions, that in no way involve biology, but silence and subjugate – the opposite of equality.
how are those things equal? they’re unequal roles. difference in fathers and mothers and penises and vaginas – not talking about that.
“I know you too well” – ABlacksmanagain
oh? i can tell that you think you do.
“MY wife has the role of having children that I don’t . how does that equate to us being unequal. answer or run away again..” – ABlacksmagain
well i dont know, as I wouldnt say that, and have not. Again, what i am talking about is speaking and teaching and leading and following. how is it that your wife’s role of having children means that she cant teach men or speak in church or that she has a lesser say? and then how is that equal?
“Mike, whether YOU accept it or not, most people (women in particular) have typically found the idea of not getting to speak in church a sign that they are undervalued.”
So what? What does what people FEEL (rather than reality) have to do with what the NT teaches?? Furthermore you are wrong in your interpretation. One passage asserts that she should not usurp in order to teach but its obvious it is not a general prohibition against all ministries of speaking because women are allowed to prophecy (and there were quite a few females in such ministry in Acts)
I Corinthians 11:4
” Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head
People being ignorant of the NT doesn’t make the point valid.
Thanks for the kind words, man. It says a lot about your character. 🙂
I won’t delete everything you’ve said — you’ve made some great points. But since you asked, I’ll at least try to go through and edit out anything that might be considered offensive.
I’m not at all ignorant of those passages. But I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say about them.
People with specific spiritual gifts are given certain instructions, including the women. But we’re not really talking about people with spiritual gifts, since they’re the exception. We’re talking about men and women in general.
Just a couple of verses later in 1 Cor 11, Paul says this:
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.
That’s a pretty clear difference.
1 Tim 2:12:
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
This one’s pretty clear as well. Again, maybe you don’t see a problem with this, but most people view it as a pretty big inequality between the sexes.
“Carmen’s overall point is pretty valid: Mike is an abrasive guy who has gotten himself banned before. He’s now come back under a different name (though didn’t attempt to hide who he was), and I haven’t banned him yet.”
running a wordpress blog on the internets gives you no added credibility to pronounce anything as valid or invalid Nate. Thats one of your fallacies. Carmen was lying for the most part. i have never concealed neither has anyone had to figure out it was me posting on this blog.
I lost respect for your ban because you had no respect for your own word not to have discussion about me on your blog.
Still its hilarious you still claiming i am abrasive with grlll spewing out obscenities and you even thanking his posts where he does.. perfect hypocrisy
Finding Truth 
I feel your frustration, Paul.
And I really feel for you for what you have suffered due to your family. I think we all understand why you have such strong feelings against conservative/fundamentalist Christians.
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“If you earn it you get it. You never do. Ruth sometimes does. learn and improve” – ABlacksmanafain
every take your own advise?
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If you earn it you get it. You never do. Ruth sometimes does.
Only sometimes?!? Moi??? 😉
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“Of course there are prophetesses in acts and no prohibition from preaching in general (you are alluding to particular church meetings related to teaching). get up off your lazy rear end and look it up without commanding me to give you chapter and verse. You are the one claiming to tell me what the Bible teaches”
1 cor 14 is in the context of spiritual gifts, and verse 34 is speaking to women who prophesy.
they were told that they were not to speak in the churches.
there was a time and a place, the woman’s time was more restricted than that of a man – again, not equal.
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OH, and Mike – Ruth ALWAYS gets respect. There’s a good reason. A smart guy like you ought to be able to figure it out.
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“When you can show me that being equal means my Wife has the same body parts that I do, she has to have my physical strength, I have to have her emotional sensitivity and we both must have identical emotional and social skills then you can BEGIN to make an argument that us having different roles to play means one is better or greater tan the other.” – ABlacksmanagain
I have no intention of inspecting your wife’s body parts.
and body parts is not what I’m talking about.
men and women are different, of course, and I, at least, am not bothered by that. But if you can show me how limitations in speaking and teaching for a woman is equal to no such restrictions for a man, then we have something…
and if love means submission, then why command them differently? why say to one, “submit” and to the other “love.” they’re not the same.
Does christ submit to the church or does the church submit to christ? are the two equal, in your mind?
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Actually, I should have said, “Ruth always gets respect, as do the vast majority of the posters on Nate’s blog” . ..
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“. Of course, for those who’ve been around long enough, as soon as one of his comments is read – no matter how creative he is with his ‘handle’ – he’s instantly identified. ”
Just so you know Marvin Carmen is being quite the liar there (proving his own lack of morality). MY previous name was ablacksman. As you see from the present name there was not the slightest “creativity” to hide anything and It was I who announced I was back due to the blog owner not abiding by an agreement not to have his groupies discuss me on his blog.
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Thanks, Carmen!
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and to clarify, I dont think the NT is saying that a husband can lord over his wife like a tyrant. I do not think that is the case.
but giving one more of the say and the other less of the say, even if broken out 51% to 49% is not equal.
is it?
and if it’s so clear, why keep trying to make it about the same body parts and having babies?
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Mike, a couple of points
1) I’m female
2) I just looked through only two of Nate’s ‘back threads’ – you were Mike Anthony on one and TBlacksman on another, and now you’ve ‘morphed’ again.
Who’s the liar??
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@TILDEB
I was raised in a very pragmatic Christian church, the Salvation Army. They’re the ones who showed up with coffee for firefighters and service men. They also ran alcohol treatment programs, homes for unwed mothers, distributed donated clothing, provided temporary housing for transits, and so forth.
They are an offshoot of the Methodist. I take my 94 year old mother to the local Methodist church. They too have programs to aid the poor and participate in a multi-denominational program that provides overnight housing for the homeless in the winter.
The church of my choice, the Unitarian Universalists, also participates in the overnight housing program.
Many Christian churches take seriously Jesus’s call to feed the poor, tend to the sick, and visit the prisoner. But, every church comes with its own baggage of creeds and sins.
Oh. Almost forgot. The Epicopal church made Gene Robinson the first openly gay bishop.
Underlying these is the Christian message of love, not only for you neighbor, but for the despised (Samaritans) and even your enemy.
And it is the cultivation of that love for others that is a positive contribution to the social community.
So I never consider another moral person my enemy, but rather a potential ally as we move progressively to a better future for everyone.
LikeLiked by 2 people
“I have no intention of inspecting your wife’s body parts.”
Even if she were single you would never get the opportunity. Its pretty much the same “no, get lost weirdo” answer you get from all women.
” But if you can show me how limitations in speaking and teaching for a woman is equal to no such restrictions for a man, then we have something…”
You make no conditions. Its you that need to show why role differences mean that men and women are not equal. When you can’t rebut a point all you do is demand another answer. Play that game with others not me. I know you too well
MY wife has the role of having children that I don’t . how does that equate to us being unequal. answer or run away again..
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“So I never consider another moral person my enemy, but rather a potential ally as we move progressively to a better future for everyone.” – Marvin
very nice. well said.
makes me want to be a better man.
thanks.
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“2) I just looked through only two of Nate’s ‘back threads’ – you were Mike Anthony on one and TBlacksman on another, and now you’ve ‘morphed’ again.
Who’s the liar??”
You are. I was never banned under Mike anthony. I lost my logins and changed to Blacksman and announced that as well before any ban. Plus I announced to this board I was back from the very first time under this username so you are not only a liar you wax in ignorance as well..
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Mike, whether YOU accept it or not, most people (women in particular) have typically found the idea of not getting to speak in church a sign that they are undervalued.
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Apparently Mike doesn’t realize that a person can be mistaken without being a liar.
Carmen’s overall point is pretty valid: Mike is an abrasive guy who has gotten himself banned before. He’s now come back under a different name (though didn’t attempt to hide who he was), and I haven’t banned him yet.
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Oh, and whether he identifies himself or not, Carmen’s right that it’s pretty easy to recognize him.
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@Marvin
Thanks for the great comments, and welcome to the blog! I appreciate what you’ve had to say so far, and your view sounds pretty similar to my own.
It’s true that I don’t really moderate this blog very much. Honestly, until about a year ago, it was never an issue. I’ve never been a huge fan of moderated blogs for two reasons:
1) It slows down conversation, since you often have to wait for comments to be approved.
2) It makes people suspicious about the quality of the conversation. They wonder if people are sometimes silenced just because they disagree with the blog’s author.
I really do want this blog to be about “finding truth.” Not to say I have it — I may be wrong. But that’s why I value open dialog on these topics. I wish that it stayed more cordial than it sometimes does, and I struggle a bit on how to deal with those warring goals.
Anyway, please feel free to hang around and weigh in on anything that catches your interest!
LikeLike
“Its you that need to show why role differences mean that men and women are not equal. When you can’t rebut a point all you do is demand another answer. Play that game with others not me.” – ABlacksmanagain
you keep saying that it’s not unequal because you cant breastfeed and your wife has babies. I agree and keep saying that no one but you is speaking about that. what i am talking about, again, is when women cant teach men, but men can teach women; and men can speak in church, but women cannot, and that the woman is to submit to the husband, but not the other way around.
these are pretty clear distinctions, that in no way involve biology, but silence and subjugate – the opposite of equality.
how are those things equal? they’re unequal roles. difference in fathers and mothers and penises and vaginas – not talking about that.
“I know you too well” – ABlacksmanagain
oh? i can tell that you think you do.
“MY wife has the role of having children that I don’t . how does that equate to us being unequal. answer or run away again..” – ABlacksmagain
well i dont know, as I wouldnt say that, and have not. Again, what i am talking about is speaking and teaching and leading and following. how is it that your wife’s role of having children means that she cant teach men or speak in church or that she has a lesser say? and then how is that equal?
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“Mike, whether YOU accept it or not, most people (women in particular) have typically found the idea of not getting to speak in church a sign that they are undervalued.”
So what? What does what people FEEL (rather than reality) have to do with what the NT teaches?? Furthermore you are wrong in your interpretation. One passage asserts that she should not usurp in order to teach but its obvious it is not a general prohibition against all ministries of speaking because women are allowed to prophecy (and there were quite a few females in such ministry in Acts)
I Corinthians 11:4
” Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head
People being ignorant of the NT doesn’t make the point valid.
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@SPG
Thanks for the kind words, man. It says a lot about your character. 🙂
I won’t delete everything you’ve said — you’ve made some great points. But since you asked, I’ll at least try to go through and edit out anything that might be considered offensive.
Thanks!
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I’m not at all ignorant of those passages. But I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say about them.
People with specific spiritual gifts are given certain instructions, including the women. But we’re not really talking about people with spiritual gifts, since they’re the exception. We’re talking about men and women in general.
Just a couple of verses later in 1 Cor 11, Paul says this:
That’s a pretty clear difference.
1 Tim 2:12:
This one’s pretty clear as well. Again, maybe you don’t see a problem with this, but most people view it as a pretty big inequality between the sexes.
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mike, keep reading 1 cor through chapter 14. they’re talking about prophesying and they say that women must be silent in the churches.
there are times that they can prophecy – church isn’t one of them… where men can speak and prophecy in church.
unequal.
and
1 Timothy 2:12New International Version (NIV)
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet.
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“Carmen’s overall point is pretty valid: Mike is an abrasive guy who has gotten himself banned before. He’s now come back under a different name (though didn’t attempt to hide who he was), and I haven’t banned him yet.”
running a wordpress blog on the internets gives you no added credibility to pronounce anything as valid or invalid Nate. Thats one of your fallacies. Carmen was lying for the most part. i have never concealed neither has anyone had to figure out it was me posting on this blog.
I lost respect for your ban because you had no respect for your own word not to have discussion about me on your blog.
Still its hilarious you still claiming i am abrasive with grlll spewing out obscenities and you even thanking his posts where he does.. perfect hypocrisy
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