Not Surprising at All

FiveThirtyEight has a new article up that illustrates how education and religion factor in to this presidential election. The findings are pretty much what you’d expect, but you may be interested in reading the full article anyway.

By the way, the FiveThirtyEight Elections Podcast is excellent, if you’re interested in that kind of thing.

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52 thoughts on “Not Surprising at All”

  1. Hi Nate, as an Aussie I look on with some alarm but a little detachment too. But I can’t help feeling that there must be people who would make better Presidents than these two, which must indicate that the system isn’t working as it should, whether the system’s fault or the people’s. It is much the same here in Australia, though perhaps not as bad. As a christian, I’m particularly disturbed to think that so many christians in the US are so naive as to think that Trump is a christian and has christian values – or even decent values.

    Reinforces the thought that Obama is such a glorious exception – a competent, intelligent, compassionate and well-spoken President.

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  2. “As a christian, I’m particularly disturbed to think that so many christians in the US are so naive as to think that Trump is a christian and has christian values – or even decent values.”

    Well uncleE, there is overwhelming evidence that Christians support Trump over Hillary. You like to use overwhelming evidence to support your views so these Christians must be right in this matter and you must be wrong. Eh?

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  3. unkleE with all do respect, your statements above again give people concern. I don’t like Hillary or Trump, but how are you able to discern who is Christian and who is not ? What separates your ability to do this from an Isis leader to determine 137 people in Paris should have died last November ?

    And why should Christians only vote for Christians ? Who determines what religion the candidate is. Why does it matter ?

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  4. I for one am happy that at least one Christian can see through Donald Trump’s phony Christian veneer. Unfortunately, that Christian is an Australian and will not be voting in November.

    I saw an advertisement yesterday with Billy Graham’s son in it. He was promoting a “Christian guide” to the election.

    Scary.

    Attention all non-theist Americans: VOTE this November.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. I see through Trump’s inadequacies as a Presidential Candidate ns, my point was that unkleE acted like he had some divine ability to discern who was and was not a Christian.

    And yes Franklin Graham seems to think he has this ability too.

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  6. I can’t bring myself to vote for either Trump or Hillary.

    Hillary is part of the machine that brought us here. Promising free college or a free this and that when we have a deficit and an absurd amount of national debt sounds crazy to me and too much like pandering to voters who want free stuff. An exit tax? I don’t even get it. I just don’t like it and I don’t like her. And the emails… if she was only sending emails from her personal account, then maybe that’s one thing, although still weird or naive or even shady, but building your very own personal server – it’s just too much. But I can see where people see her as a less crappy choice to Trump.

    Trump, the dude’s unpredictable and a little too quick to spout out stuff about discriminating based on religion. And in general, I think people who say whatever’s on their mind are foolish. I don’t like him, but at the same time I can see where people see that he has like 5 kids that turned out pretty well, that he’s been successful in business, despite 4 bankruptcies and if you ignore stepping on the little guy…. I can get that they see him as a radical who could change the way things are done in Washington – my fear is that change could look like anything – even the scary and the insane, and I’m not ready to buy in.

    There are no good choices. Even the 3rd party selections…

    American politics is concerned with soundbites and polls and bases its success on ignorance, which none of them try to correct – they’re too busy playing to that ignorance because they want people divided by race, economic status, education, etc because that’s how they get a loyal base, and how they can convince and persuade people to keep voting along these broken lines, so that they can remain in power – and more and more i’m thinking they want to build more and more control. The patriot act, and little by little encroaching more and more…

    Maybe some of that is inevitable as a population grows, But i’d like to preserve as much actual freedom as possible. But I’m no libertarian either. We need some regulation and this Epi-pen issue is a good example of why. We government, and we need taxes to support it, but at some point we can easily cross the line from too little to too much.

    It makes me sick, really, and I can’t support it.

    Do you listen to those idiots at the political rallies? They’re cheering and screaming as if they were 15 year old girls at a beetles concert in the 60’s… It’s madness. Why on earth would anyone be that excited about these two? I can get, “well crap, I hate both of them, but I hate this one just a little less,” but I cannot seem to fathom the hysterical infatuation that the louder supporters convey.

    If you pray, pray for tidal waves.

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  7. Kcchief1,

    I think UnkleE is just doing what the rest of us do, we make judgements based on the way people act and what we observe them do or don’t do.

    If UnkleE perceives that the fundamental traits of christian is outside of the way Trump acts, then is that any different than us defining a political position as “not democrat” based on the stated positions, or “anti-capitalist” based on economic positions?

    I’m not saying I think you’re point is all wrong. I think some believers try to play god and decide who’s in the kingdom or who’s out of it, reaching far beyond their place – but here I think UnkleE is not guilty of that; I think he just sees trump as maybe a womanizer, an arrogant blowhard, and possibly unloving – so I can get it, I can see where someone might think that Trump isn’t a “Christian,” especially if they think a “true christian” doesn’t just believe in jesus, but is also someone who strives to live by those values.

    Just my take.

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  8. Point well taken, William. The reason I took exception with unkleE is that he is a “numbers” guy. How many times have we heard him use the phrase “overwhelming consensus . And yet here he is defying what millions of Americans feel by saying they are wrong and he is right.

    Many of us who were once Christians were taught that one’s Christianity was between God and themselves. Only.

    That was my point. My only point.

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  9. Approximately one month ago, the prediction gurus were giving Hillary an over 80% chance of winning the American presidential election. Today they are giving her just slightly over 50% chance of winning.

    When Trump announced his candidacy way back when, I laughed. What a joke. He hasn’t got a chance. Then he started winning a few primaries. Then I thought, “It’s a fluke. There is no way he will win the Republican nomination.” When he won the Republican nomination, I laughed: “Hillary is going to slaughter him!”

    I am no longer laughing. The know-nothing, bigoted, vindictive, thin-skinned Donald just may be the next President of the United States—the most powerful man in the world.

    We should all be very afraid. The entire world should be very afraid!

    Read this political “guru’s” perspective:

    “Jonathan Chait: “So what do the polls say? FiveThirtyEight, Silver’s site, gives Clinton a 51.5 percent chance of winning. The Upshot, the New York Times calculator, gives her a 69 percent chance. (Both forecasts are based mostly on polling results.) Silver’s forecast makes Clinton the equivalent of a football team that is a 1-point favorite. The Upshot’s forecast makes her the equivalent of a 5.5-point favorite.”

    “If your football team is either a 1-point favorite or a 5.5-point favorite, then you should be deeply concerned about the chance of losing. If the outcome is not a football game but the chance that the Executive branch falls under the control of a bigoted, uninformed, dictator-admiring man-child, you should be more than concerned. You should be freaked out.”

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  10. Fortunately there’s congress to keep whomever wins in check and balanced….

    EXCEPT when the majority of congress is the same political party as the POTUS.

    And yes, I agree. Congress is horrid. They’re way too busy working to get re-elected instead of doing the job they were elected to do!

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  11. Trump is unlike anything we have ever seen. He thinks that the ex-KGB, Russian tyrant Vladimir Putin is to be admired.

    Trump doesn’t want to be president. He wants to be dictator…and it seems at least half of America is ok with that. America wants a strong man…the Constitution be damned.

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  12. Neither are good candidates. I cannot really see where Hillary is that much better that Trump overall – on a few issues, okay, but overall?

    The choices are between a douche bag and turd sandwich.

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  13. And I do not like Trump at all, for plenty of reasons that should be obvious, but I want to say something that may sound like I’m defending him, but I am not.

    It’s the tax returns. Does anyone believe the IRS is going to let him get by with anything illegal, or let him skate without paying his due taxes? He’s being audited.

    Releasing tax returns is not a constitutional requirement to run for any office, and it’s not really even for “transparency,” it’s a political tool used to show the voters how much more money someone makes than the rest of us, designed to make us envious and resentful, so that we see some big separation between us and them. I don’t care about anyone’s tax returns.

    And besides that, the way Clinton was surmising all the bad and sinister reasons that Trump must have for keeping his returns secret, should probably make all us wonder even more why she deleted government emails and created her own personal server to divert them and hide them. If keeping tax returns secret, which isn’t illegal or against any requirement, means you’re hiding bad stuff, then what about mishandling, hiding and deleting government emails which is against the law and well established ComSec procedures and protocols? What does that imply she was hiding?

    And Trump was too caught up in himself to even turn that around on her last night. She gift-rapped it, handed it to him, and he still missed. I just can’t do it; I can’t vote for either one.

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  14. Seriously, William?

    Clinton may be a liar but she is knowledgeable and steady handed. Trump is ignorant on most issues and temperamentally unstable. A vote for Clinton is a vote for the status quo. A vote for Trump is a vote for going over the cliff.

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  15. Yeah, I don’t like the status quo.

    I sure don’t like trump, but the status quo is what brought us all of our problems, right?

    neither will get my vote.

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  16. I couldn’t disagree with you more, William.

    On the email thing, it was a bad decision, but I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that it was done for any malicious purpose. As someone who works in IT, I can tell you that it’s very common for companies (and sometimes famous individuals) to have their own email server. Some companies are moving away from it now because of very secure options like Gmail, but those are usually only smaller companies. Hillary has been the right wing’s scapegoat for decades, so I’m not surprised that she would want to maintain control of her own emails. Whether or not their private server was actually more secure is kind of moot — they may have believed it would be more secure. Furthermore, in all the emails that have become public, nothing nefarious was in them. Secure government emails operate on their own server anyway. As I understand it, they can only be accessed from specific secure terminals, so Hillary’s private server has nothing to do with that.

    Regardless, when you consider all the crap surrounding Trump, I really don’t see how anyone can paint them with the same brush. It’s like comparing the Surgeon General with Dr Nick. He has a long track record of shady business deals, sexist and racist remarks and behavior, and poor judgment. While Hillary is certainly not perfect, her track record has displayed intelligence and a commitment to service.

    To me, this is the clearest election we’ve seen in a very long time. I can easily see why some people would have preferred Romney or McCain over Obama. But this? I don’t see how anyone could prefer Trump over Clinton (or even see them as the same), unless they’ve been won over by some of the right wing propaganda against her. Even if the deficit is a concern, her policies are nowhere near as detrimental as Trump’s would be.

    Personally, I think Trump is so abysmal that even people who don’t like Hillary should be compelled to vote for her, even over any 3rd party candidate. Especially people who live in swing states. I live in Alabama — the race is already decided here. I’ll definitely vote, but it probably won’t make a real difference. But if you live in Florida, Ohio, Colorado, etc — your vote is extremely important!

    Does any of that resonate with you, William? If not, I’d like to hear why. It honestly surprises me that you view Trump and Clinton so similarly. What am I missing?

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  17. I don’t think the status quo is all that terrible. Could it be better? Absolutely. Do we have some serious problems? Yes! But in many ways, I think we’re much better off than we’ve been in the past.

    Also, I think sudden, revolutionary-style waves of change can be problematic. I think smaller, slower, pragmatic change is preferable. It may not be as sexy, but it tends to keep other aspects of society from going off the rails.

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  18. I don’t like Trump at all. I don’t see he and Clinton as the same, but I do see both as detestable in their own way.

    I don’t really think the emails are that big of a deal, but i do think they’re a bigger deal than Trump’s tax returns. I think if she’s going to make a huge deal out of those, and guess all sorts of negative and terrible reasons why he’d keep those hidden, that it makes much more sense for hidden and deleted emails to be bigger deal than tax returns that are going through an audit. That was my only point there, although there is government ComSec protocols and regulations, and i’d very much doubt that any of them included personal servers and private email accounts, and very, very likely had rules against such. While I’ve been guilty of a being hypocrite myself, it’s never easy to leave alone, especially on this size stage, especially with the grievance to so large.

    I do not think the country will burn down, regardless of who gets elected. Trump scares me, but it’s not as if he’ll have free reign to harass muslims, or declare war, or set policy, etc. Congress and the supreme court will get in the way, but I would not want him there, and i think it will be a mistake.

    But while Hillary isn’t likely to oppress anyone, I am not sure her term would be without negative consequences either. I dont like her economic plans and think they’ll actually make things worse, although it may not manifest right away. And as long as the Republicans hang on to one or both houses, we’ll see even more gridlock (this is one is also a fault of the republicans and I think they share more of the blame).

    I dont think either do anything to help the growing racial divide – I think they both make it worse from different ends.

    I think they’d both create problems on the international relations level, but from different ends.

    I think Trump preys on people’s aggravation with system while Hillary preys on envy, race and gender.

    I can see why some may vote for Trump because they’re thinking about a more conservative supreme court nominee, although I think they’re narrow view makes them practically blind.

    I can see where people like Hillary because she’s more familiar and she’s not trump, although I think that’s pretty forgiving and overlooking a lot.

    There’s not any good third party candidate, but even so, I think Gary Johnson, when compared to these two, makes the most sense. A wasted vote? maybe for some people, but not for me – because the “wasted vote” excuse:

    1) assumes I’d rather one of the two front runners over another, and in this case, i’m not sure I do.
    2) can only be true if everyone believes it – not because it actually is true.
    3) a victory doesn’t have to measured by securing POTUS, but could be measured with as little as 5% of the popular vote.
    4) ignores the idea that the person who appears to be the best candidate should get my vote. People can vote how they like, but I’d rather vote for the best choice, even if I think that choice has a slim chance of winning – because maybe if everyone did that, we’d have avoided a lot of the problems we face now.
    5) whoever wins, will win by more than my one vote anyways, so along those lines, no matter how I vote, it’s wasted.

    I don’t think it’s that hard to see why both are bad choices. I don’t think it’s hard to understand why someone wouldn’t want to waste a vote on either.

    “I hate this one less,” is hard to get excited about.

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  19. But see, I’m not even sure this is exactly accurate,

    “He has a long track record of shady business deals, sexist and racist remarks and behavior, and poor judgment. While Hillary is certainly not perfect, her track record has displayed intelligence and a commitment to service.”

    This depends on how you look at it, and it could just as easily be said that,

    “She has along track record of unethical legal deals, diplomatic and government correspondence cover ups, shady Clinton Foundations financial actions, and poor judgement on foreign policy and the Iraq war. While Trump is certainly not perfect, and he runs off at the mouth sometimes, but he has raised 5 well spoken and successful children, and a track record that displays knowledge in business and finance, and astounding economic success.”

    I just don’t like either. I think a lot of work is needed to make either look less bad, and even then, that’s all you get – not someone that looks good, but still just someone who looks bad.

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  20. There’s not any good third party candidate, but even so, I think Gary Johnson, when compared to these two, makes the most sense. A wasted vote? maybe for some people, but not for me – because the “wasted vote” excuse:

    1) assumes I’d rather one of the two front runners over another, and in this case, i’m not sure I do.
    2) can only be true if everyone believes it – not because it actually is true.
    3) a victory doesn’t have to measured by securing POTUS, but could be measured with as little as 5% of the popular vote.
    4) ignores the idea that the person who appears to be the best candidate should get my vote. People can vote how they like, but I’d rather vote for the best choice, even if I think that choice has a slim chance of winning – because maybe if everyone did that, we’d have avoided a lot of the problems we face now.
    5) whoever wins, will win by more than my one vote anyways, so along those lines, no matter how I vote, it’s wasted.

    I like Gary Johnson pretty well, and he’d obviously make a better President than Trump. I disagree with him pretty strongly on fiscal issues, though. As far as your reasons for voting for him, I think 4 is the best. To me, 5 is committing the same mistake that you address in 2. As to your 1st point, if you really don’t have a preference between the two, then I guess I see your point. I’m just surprised that you don’t have a preference.

    I think you make a fair point when you took my generalization and turned it around. But to clarify, I do think the facts show that even though he appears to be a great businessman on the surface, the details prove that he’s not what people first expect when they hear that phrase. He’s definitely more like the Atlantic City casino owner caricature. And the way his kids have turned out is not necessarily because he was a stellar parent.

    On the other hand, I think closer inspection of the criticisms against Hillary show that her intentions have usually been good. Also, some of the generalizations simply aren’t true when you dig in deeper.

    Anyway, I don’t think we’ll likely get anywhere by pushing this further. It just surprised me a bit since we see religion so similarly.

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  21. Well, I just “liked” my own comment. I was trying to click “edit” instead, but maybe Trump’s narcissism is rubbing off on me. I do have the best words, after all. 😉

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  22. I’m not big on a lit of the Libertarian platforms, but when looked at in view of having to work with the other branches if government, those least liked platforms wouldn’t be a factor, I think.

    2 & 5? I’m just covering all bases, hitting all the typical remarks when people tell how dumb voting 3rd party is. I felt like I was covered either way.

    And I agree about Trump, I was just making an illustration because I thought your portrayal of Hillary was maybe a bit too generous. But I do get why people like her better than Trump – I just don’t want either in that position.

    And Clearly Hillary would be preferred in many areas, but the areas I dont like her in aren’t small ones to me, and not small enough for me to overlook and think that I’d cast a vote for.

    Who’s worse, Hitler or Saddam?

    I think one is clearly worse, but that doesn’t mean I’d therefore choose Saddam if they were the only two in a race. Shoot, it makes more sense to protest the national anthem over this election than it does for police violence against minorities.

    * And i’m not comparing Trump and Hillary to Hitler and Saddam, just showing that two choices doesn’t always mean I’d prefer one over the other, but can mean I really want nothing to do with either.

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  23. Shoot, it makes more sense to protest the national anthem over this election than it does for police violence against minorities.

    Dammit! Another area of disagreement!

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  24. A vote for Johnson, or Stein, or staying home is a vote for Trump. The KKK, the neo-Nazi’s and the evangelical fundies will come out in droves for him. They WILL vote.

    Vote, William. Vote for the lesser of two evils, but VOTE, dammit.

    🙂

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  25. A vote for Johnson is only a vote for Trump IF i’d be willing to Vote for Hillary instead – I just dont like her.

    Nate, I was joking about the national anthem protest, but does this mean you support the athlete’s protest of the national anthem?

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  26. It’s not something I would do, but I think they have the right to do it. And I do agree with them that there’s a problem with systemic racism in this country. I think there are just too many examples to deny that now. If they want to call attention to it by not standing during the national anthem, I think there may be better ways to do it. Of course, there are certainly worse ways, too.

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  27. I agree that they have the right, but I just don’t understand it.

    Do they think the USA has a standing policy to discriminate against the black community? If so, then I can get the protest, if not, then it makes no sense at all.

    And I think the answer is no, the USA has no such policy and in fact has the opposite, although hat wasn’t always the case.

    So, yes they have the right, but I think it’s dumb and misplaced. It’s like protesting the NFL because people have been Raped. Sure Rape is awful, but the NFL doesn’t encourage it or have policies supporting it – even if there have been a few NFL players who’ve been guilty of it. I don’t hate the players who do it, but i think it’s a shallow effort.

    I think the growing racial divide is multifaceted. I think the police need to fix their issues, but I don’t think the majority of Police are racist,

    I think there’s a lot to be fixed in the black communities. I do think that blacks are more unjustly incarcerated than whites, but I also think that blacks commit more violent crimes than whites, which is supported by FBI statistics, so I am a little reluctant to sign on to the idea that racism is as bad as it’s being portrayed.

    I just don’t get how sitting for the national anthem does anything. I wonder what the black combat veterans think of the protest? But again, if one thinks the US has standing policy against black people, then okay – I just don’t think it does.

    .

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  28. It’s not an official policy, but that doesn’t mean there’s no issue.

    These guys are just trying to call attention to the problem. I can’t say I blame them too much, when I see so many people around here deny that there’s any problem at all.

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  29. I agree, there is a problem, but blaming Joe for Paul’s problem may not be the best way to bring attention to the problem – it may just highlight another problem.

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  30. What better way to make white “regular Joes” aware of a problem than to insert it into football? Maybe paste it on a beer label…

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  31. And I think there are at least two problems, and I think people on both sides ignore their own and only see the other – which, I guess, is a third problem.

    Police has a real issue that they need to acknowledge and address.

    the black community also has a real issue that they need to acknowledge and address.

    Same with the white community.

    But a lot of the discrimination isn’t race based, I think, but poverty based. If a white guy was dressed in a wife-beater shirt, looked either thug-ish or trailer-trash-ish, he would be, and has been, treated the same by police – granted, the ratios are different, but there is a higher percentage of blacks in poverty than whites.

    maybe it’s less about race and more about poverty, which would highlight another issue – if those in poverty are more prone to crime, how do we solve that?

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  32. Nascar – those are the jerks who need it most.

    BUt to many, it falls on deaf ears, because it’s seen as misplaced. The national anthem is about the nation’s ideals, the bill of rights, equality and freedom. To many, they see it as discounting that, while trampling over the graves of those who’ve served under those ideals – even the black veterans.

    Nah, I don’t follow.

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  33. I think poverty is part of it, but I think race is too. Go back and look at all the victims of police violence over the last several years. They weren’t all dressed in a way that portrayed poverty or gang affiliation.

    And of course, plenty of these videos show that police weren’t in any real danger anyway.

    I think most of this comes from an authoritarian view. Some of these cops feel like if someone doesn’t do what they say when they say it, no matter how trivial, then it’s fair to escalate things. That’s just the wrong outlook. They’re the professionals — they should be the ones trying to maintain calm and order. If someone doesn’t immediately comply with something they say, then they should rethink what they’ve asked of the person. Is it necessary? Is it reasonable?

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  34. I’m not saying the national anthem protest is the best way to spread the message. But I don’t think it’s the worst way, either. And honestly, the biggest shame is that people need the message to begin with. Some of these videos remove all doubt that there’s an issue.

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  35. And I’m not insensitive to the problems.

    I do believe that slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation have held black people back, and places them at a disadvantage, even today.

    What are the causes for this persisting even after those programs have ended?

    1) despite vast improvement, there is still racism in various places
    2) instead of taking advantage of available programs and opportunities, they are ignored or squandered.
    3) I think the memory of slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation caused many to teach their children that no matter how hard they work or how well they do, that the police or white people, wont let them succeed. I think this makes some less productive workers, because they’re too down about having to fight up hill, and they don’t realize that when they get fired or looked over for a promotion due to being a poor employee, they see it as fulfillment that they’re being kept down because of their skin color.

    #1 isn’t just due to whites, but all races have their racists, and I think time and education handle this one.

    #2 is to have community outreach (maybe NFL players could do this in addition to sitting during the anthem) and encourage all kids,even exclusively minorities, to apply themselves in school or the military or at work to get ahead.

    #3 is the one I’m not sure about. I think it’s related to #2’s solution, but it goes deeper. Are they due reparations? I think so, but that doesn’t mean it will happen or that there’s a good way to pay for it. Plus, while blacks had it far worse and in far more general terms, there were others like Irish for a time in a way, who were also enslaved. Should they get reparations too? And who should pay for it? Should tax dollars, which come from black as well as white? who come from linage of slave owner as well as those who weren’t? And really, if reparations would help, I’d say just do it and be done with it – but aside from that, what?

    What wont work is is pretending that #1 is the only issue. What also wont work is pretending that #1 isn’t an issue at all.

    But, I also think, “white privilege,” is overplayed. Nate, you’re a white guy like me, but did you receive an inheritance? Did your parents pay for your college?

    I didn’t get one, and the GI Bill paid for my college. I have had good fortune and I had a good home, but I didn’t get a free house or free college. So while I get accept that I have been blessed and had less roadblocks, “white privilege” implies that I didn’t work for what I have, which isn’t true.

    Any ideas on how this is overcome and how we come together?

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  36. “maybe it’s less about race and more about poverty, which would highlight another issue – if those in poverty are more prone to crime, how do we solve that?”

    I think it’s both William. I’ve had Cop friends most of my adult life. Guys who’ve been on the force for a number of years that would talk openly to me about hot button issues.

    From their standpoint, it was a poverty and just as important a culture issue. They didn’t necessarily mean culture from another country as it also meant culture of the community.

    An example from a cop friend of mine in Kansas City. They could go into an apartment building in the inner city looking for someone and visit 2 apartments across the hallway . One might have adults high on drugs with children around sitting on insect infested furniture that had had holes in it from abuse. Filthy and the stench was overwhelming. Across the hall would be straight adults with children doing their homework on the floor. The furniture was also in bad shape but they placed covers over it to make it look presentable. The apartment was clean and maintained as best they could.

    Do you see the difference ? As my friend said, you may not help being poor, but there is no excuse for not being responsible and clean.

    So this is only one side of the problem. But it needs to be addressed just like the other situations concerning police and the white community.

    Though I haven’t lived there in 6 years, I still donate to an organization in Kansas City that is helping the inner city to reclaim their pride and reduce crime. You can watch a short video here about them. Just click on the video in the middle of their home page.
    http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/

    What if we were able to do this Nationwide ? What a concept !

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  37. You’re right about the police.

    I do agree.

    But again, bad police aren’t the only issue that needs to be address, although it is a very real, big issue.

    And still, I think the police is an instance of a bad minority of police, instead of an overall policy.

    Ironically, I think the issues are more similar than we realize. I think many in the black community are taught that police hate you and are out to get you,etc – and I think police are briefed, “be careful out there, they’ll try to kill you, etc…”

    and so they’re both on the streets expecting the worse already.

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  38. I say poverty may be a big or bigger issue, because I dont think most people think through things. I think most mouth breathing cops may say “black people are this way…”

    But I think the same cops in a dirty trailer park full of white people, would treat these whites no better and think just as poorly about them – “they’re this way because they’re lazy or just want drugs or are stupid,” and all that

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  39. William,

    If you don’t vote…
    and Trump wins…
    and I have to move to Australia to escape…
    and I end up living next door to UnkleE…

    I will hold YOU responsible.

    Like

  40. For real though, I do spend a little time looking to see if there’s another place I’d fit into better, and be a little happier – but for now I’m sort of limited to English speaking countries.

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  41. “but for now I’m sort of limited to English speaking countries.”

    William there are a lot of countries where spoken English is not uncommon. I love going to Switzerland and have no problem communicating. Plus they are a neutral country with relatively low crime. Just sayin….. 🙂

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  42. Well, while I hate to be that American who expects everyone to speak English, I like what you’re getting at, and if nothing else, Switzerland would be a beautiful place to visit.

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  43. I cut my grass this afternoon, and it just so happened that the episode of This American Life that I had loaded in my podcast was this one. Just thought I’d share since it relates so well to our discussion. It’s worth a listen.

    Like

  44. Let me try this one more time.

    @unkleE, “As a christian, I’m particularly disturbed to think that so many christians in the US are so naive as to think that Trump is a christian and has christian values – or even decent values.”

    On Fox News this morning, they interviewed a well known Christian Minister (Robert Jeffress) who IMHO was judging the Christianity of Hillary and Trump. He obviously disagrees with unkleE and feels Trump is the only choice for Christians. He is even willing to mail you a brochure to show you why. ptv.org Perhaps unkleE would like to go online and request one of these brochures ? 🙂

    This is what I was trying to point out before. Religion needs to stay out of politics. It’s obvious the Christian God is not telling this American Minister the same thing he is telling unkleE.

    How about we vote for people according to their ability to do the job ? Hmmm

    Liked by 1 person

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