Another good analogy is the evolution of languages. Kathy, check out this page that shows just how different Old English is from Middle English and early modern English. Do you think it’s possible that languages can change slowly over time and become a new language that looks nothing like it’s original form?
“Where did the dna come from to form a wing or an eye?” – Kathy
DNA molecules are just long chains of simple nucleotides that are composed of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen and phosphorus atoms. If you want to discuss where these atoms come from we could talk about how atoms are fused together in stars. I’ll skip star and planet formation for now and just focus on our early planet which had oceans. If you think finding water on a planet is improbable we could discuss that too. Anyway, thanks to the energy from the sun and hydrothermal energy from the earth we have all kinds of chemical reactions that can take place in the early oceans on our planet. Also, since the earth is dated to 4.5 billion years old and the first micro-fossils appear at 3.5 billion years ago, we have 1 billion years of time for DNA to evolve. There are different opinions on whether RNA and DNA evolved separately or whether RNA organisms eventually evolved DNA, but it would make sense for RNA to come first since it is a simpler molecule than DNA. In 2009 scientists were able to generate RNA using chemicals that likely would have been around in the early oceans. This field of science is in it’s infancy and I think we will be hearing about more exciting discoveries in the coming decades. Kathy, if you’ve read this far, please let me know if this is what you were talking about or if you want to discuss something else.
“He conveniently starts out with light sensitive cells.. where’d they come from?” – Kathy
Light sensitive cells are a good place to start when explaining vision because they are the simplest form of “vision”. If you think about it, there are lots of light sensitive cells in nature. Your skin can sense the sun. Plant cells are sensitive to light and use it to make glucose. Even ice molecules respond to light by turning into water. It is just different ways of processing the incoming energy. Kathy, do you want to discuss how mutations can create new information? I’m sure you’ll agree that bacteria do this: Evolution in real time.
“Why does life fight to survive? What is the cause of that drive that all of evolution is based on?” – Kathy
It’s not like we are all struggling to evolve in order to survive. Giraffes didn’t evolve long necks because they all “fought” to stretch the leaves in the tree. This is not what we are saying. I think you should read Arch’s comment about giraffes again. The taller giraffe ancestors flourished because they had easy access to food, while the shorter ones died out.
Arch already pointed out the obvious problem with your question. It’s like asking “why do things that survive survive?”
right, evolution doesnt necessarily have a mind, it doesnt set out to find ways to become tougher necessarily.
many species just die.
The ones that survive have traits that aid in their survival. If we take a group of dogs and place them in a swamp area, the ones with webbed feet, like labradors, might have an edge at survival since they’d likely be better swimmers.
If they swim better, they may be more likely to get food and stay alive. If they remain healthy and survive, then they will be stronger. the stronger have better chances of passing on their stronger genes by being alive to mate and by being attractive to mates by being strong.
over time the weaker traits will become more and more recessive, if not completely removed, while the stronger traits will emerge as more and more dominant being those are the ones being passed around like STD’s in an Louisianan Frat Party.
If you changed the setting, the dominant traits may also change.
If there’s enough food to go around, many traits may be favored. If not, then this competition for food would work more quickly to weed out the weaker genes.
If a mutation were to occur that was beneficial, then that mutation would likely be passed along as well. This takes many generations, as the fossil record maintains. with bad mutations, like birth defects, these typically die out if they’re bad enough or if they hinder the species.
Like with the poster that nan linked, small adjustments can occur again and again to the point that If you were to look at the start point and then thousands and millions of years later, the result you may see would be a huge difference instead of something as small as nostril size or something like that.
when you really begin to read the actual evolution science, it makes sense. If you’re listening to or reading “pond scum” stuff, you’re likely getting such a dumbed down version of evolution that it isnt even what anyone believes.
Your pond scum remarks are sort of like discounting god because a belief that a giant spaceman farting life into the world is ridiculous…. while giant farts creating life is ridiculous, it has nothing to do with Christianity, just like “pond scum” has nothing to do with evolution. so just like giants farting have nothing to do with your god, pond scum, similarly, has nothing to do with evolution.
You should read the real stuff, not only someone’s critique of the real stuff, as they may (intentionally or unintentionally) leave stuff out or get stuff wrong. That’s why when we speak on the bible, we cite to the bible. If you want to speak on evolution, cite scientific sources.
She’ll how? how? how? until it comes to her god, and then she’ll just shrug and say “because…” after and before calling you a prideful, reverse ignorant liberal.
why cant you ask, “how?” with god?
and again, the god of the bible doesnt make good sense.
“What I don’t get is how evangelicals think we are just supposed to believe, as if we can just flip a switch.”,/cite>
Gliese, it’s a process. They use emotional manipulation, fear and guilt techniques — you know like telling you you are prideful; egotistical; a sinner. If you are attending church, they will use music (with specific beats per minute) and voice roll (a patterned, paced style used when inducing a trance) to get you into a suggestive brain wave state. This is why they will knock on your door or evangelize in public settings hoping to get you to come to their church. That’s where they are the most effective. These persuasion techniques have been around for a couple hundred years at least.
During the eighteenth century, Jonathan Edwards (who played a significant role in the 1st Great Awakening) oversaw some of the first revivals in 1733–35 at his church in Northampton, Massachusetts. He delivered the sermon “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God“. According to sources these revivals gave Edwards an opportunity for studying the process of conversion in all its phases and varieties, and he recorded his observations in “A Faithful Narrative of the Surprising Work of God in the Conversion of Many Hundred Souls in Northampton” (1737).
By inducing guilt and acute apprehension and by increasing the tension, the “sinners” attending his revival meetings would break down and completely submit, hence where the “alter call” got its beginnings.
He published “Discourses on Various Important Subjects”, and in it boasted of five sermons which had proved most effective in his revivals. He concluded that of those five sermons, he claimed that “Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners” gave immediate, effective results in conversion. Charles J. Finney was another Christian revivalist who used the same techniques four years later in mass religious conversions in New York.
Today, these same techniques are used on unsuspecting people in churches throughout America and abroad. Getting people in a suggestive brain wave state is key.
“Rhythmic sound “not only coordinates the behavior of people in a group, it also coordinates their thinking—the mental processes of individuals in the group become synchronized. This finding extends the well-known power of music to tap into brain circuits controlling emotion and movement, to actually control the brain circuitry of sensory perception.
This discovery helps explain how drums unite tribes in ceremony, why armies march to bugle and drum into battle, why worship and ceremonies are infused by song, why speech is rhythmic, punctuated by rhythms of emphasis on particular syllables and words, and perhaps why we dance. Within a few measures of music your brain waves start to get in synch with the rhythm…]
Rhythmic sound, whether in music or pattern paced voice roll creates a cortical evoked response in the brain.
I have hesitated a bit to say this here, but what the heck… I’ll say it now. I know that if I choose to allow certain inputs in my brain, such as attending church, talking only to Christians, reading Christian literature, praying in a certain way, etc., I would most likely end up flipping that switch eventually. I don’t think that has any bearing on whether or not a god exists, of course, but on what I would be thinking and feeling about that god.
Ii have conducted experiments of this kind with myself before. What happens is indoctrination, not god being revealed. Kathy, if you’re reading this, do not interpret this as pride please. The main quality behind this is fear. I am afraid of crossing that line of experimenting into actual faith. I don’t want to be a part of that great Amway sales meeting that is evangelical Christianity. In order to do that, I’d have to leave individual thought at the door, And I’d become part of the collective group brain-suck. About that, I am absolutely stubborn, rebellious, prideful, and afraid.
If Jesus actually shows up or something happens in my life that naturally leads to belief, so be it. I say this after having gone to church, prayed, read the Bible, and generally been open-minded to whatever degree I could muster. To me that’s fair.
When religion has to resort to such methodology in order to convert you, it becomes obvious to those who are able to think critically, that something is awry. The same tactics being used by religious leaders are nearly identical to the tactics used by dictators and as you pointed out, Amway sales meeting.
Marcel Kinsbourne, a neurologist, cognitive neuroscientist and a professor of psychology, states that Hitler created an environment that induced entrainment (synchronizing brainwaves to outside stimuli), thus enhancing the power of suggestion.
“The parade, the drums, the chanting, songs, the gesture of salute, the acclaim of the leader”.
All the elements had the effect of submerging the individuals into the group. Large numbers of people, all together with a single purpose, performing single acts in lock-step.
They were like one organism.
That is a pitch to which the organizers bring the people — they bring them to persuade them — to do something that they normally might not do.
Hitler understood the cohesive value of religion too:
“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith … We need believing people.”
— Adolf Hitler —
April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933.
“But Vladimir Putin knows exactly what he is doing, and his new claim has a venerable lineage. Putin is entering a claim that Moscow is the Godly City of today and command post of the counter-reformation against the new paganism. In the culture war for the future of mankind, Putin is planting Russia’s flag firmly on the side of traditional Christianity.”
Finding Truth 
Re: Transitional fossils
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This sort of sums it up, don’t you think?
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Re: Red text to Blue text
Another good analogy is the evolution of languages. Kathy, check out this page that shows just how different Old English is from Middle English and early modern English. Do you think it’s possible that languages can change slowly over time and become a new language that looks nothing like it’s original form?
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Here’s an interesting article about the components of DNA:
http://www.themarysue.com/building-blocks-dna-in-space/
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“Where did the dna come from to form a wing or an eye?” – Kathy
DNA molecules are just long chains of simple nucleotides that are composed of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen and phosphorus atoms. If you want to discuss where these atoms come from we could talk about how atoms are fused together in stars. I’ll skip star and planet formation for now and just focus on our early planet which had oceans. If you think finding water on a planet is improbable we could discuss that too. Anyway, thanks to the energy from the sun and hydrothermal energy from the earth we have all kinds of chemical reactions that can take place in the early oceans on our planet. Also, since the earth is dated to 4.5 billion years old and the first micro-fossils appear at 3.5 billion years ago, we have 1 billion years of time for DNA to evolve. There are different opinions on whether RNA and DNA evolved separately or whether RNA organisms eventually evolved DNA, but it would make sense for RNA to come first since it is a simpler molecule than DNA. In 2009 scientists were able to generate RNA using chemicals that likely would have been around in the early oceans. This field of science is in it’s infancy and I think we will be hearing about more exciting discoveries in the coming decades. Kathy, if you’ve read this far, please let me know if this is what you were talking about or if you want to discuss something else.
“He conveniently starts out with light sensitive cells.. where’d they come from?” – Kathy
Light sensitive cells are a good place to start when explaining vision because they are the simplest form of “vision”. If you think about it, there are lots of light sensitive cells in nature. Your skin can sense the sun. Plant cells are sensitive to light and use it to make glucose. Even ice molecules respond to light by turning into water. It is just different ways of processing the incoming energy. Kathy, do you want to discuss how mutations can create new information? I’m sure you’ll agree that bacteria do this: Evolution in real time.
“Why does life fight to survive? What is the cause of that drive that all of evolution is based on?” – Kathy
It’s not like we are all struggling to evolve in order to survive. Giraffes didn’t evolve long necks because they all “fought” to stretch the leaves in the tree. This is not what we are saying. I think you should read Arch’s comment about giraffes again. The taller giraffe ancestors flourished because they had easy access to food, while the shorter ones died out.
Arch already pointed out the obvious problem with your question. It’s like asking “why do things that survive survive?”
LikeLike
right, evolution doesnt necessarily have a mind, it doesnt set out to find ways to become tougher necessarily.
many species just die.
The ones that survive have traits that aid in their survival. If we take a group of dogs and place them in a swamp area, the ones with webbed feet, like labradors, might have an edge at survival since they’d likely be better swimmers.
If they swim better, they may be more likely to get food and stay alive. If they remain healthy and survive, then they will be stronger. the stronger have better chances of passing on their stronger genes by being alive to mate and by being attractive to mates by being strong.
over time the weaker traits will become more and more recessive, if not completely removed, while the stronger traits will emerge as more and more dominant being those are the ones being passed around like STD’s in an Louisianan Frat Party.
If you changed the setting, the dominant traits may also change.
If there’s enough food to go around, many traits may be favored. If not, then this competition for food would work more quickly to weed out the weaker genes.
If a mutation were to occur that was beneficial, then that mutation would likely be passed along as well. This takes many generations, as the fossil record maintains. with bad mutations, like birth defects, these typically die out if they’re bad enough or if they hinder the species.
Like with the poster that nan linked, small adjustments can occur again and again to the point that If you were to look at the start point and then thousands and millions of years later, the result you may see would be a huge difference instead of something as small as nostril size or something like that.
when you really begin to read the actual evolution science, it makes sense. If you’re listening to or reading “pond scum” stuff, you’re likely getting such a dumbed down version of evolution that it isnt even what anyone believes.
Your pond scum remarks are sort of like discounting god because a belief that a giant spaceman farting life into the world is ridiculous…. while giant farts creating life is ridiculous, it has nothing to do with Christianity, just like “pond scum” has nothing to do with evolution. so just like giants farting have nothing to do with your god, pond scum, similarly, has nothing to do with evolution.
You should read the real stuff, not only someone’s critique of the real stuff, as they may (intentionally or unintentionally) leave stuff out or get stuff wrong. That’s why when we speak on the bible, we cite to the bible. If you want to speak on evolution, cite scientific sources.
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She’s just trying to get you to say “goddidit!”, Dave.
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arch, I suspect you’re right.
She’ll how? how? how? until it comes to her god, and then she’ll just shrug and say “because…” after and before calling you a prideful, reverse ignorant liberal.
why cant you ask, “how?” with god?
and again, the god of the bible doesnt make good sense.
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Kathy hasn’t been around much the last couple of days. Think this is getting into territory over her head?
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A North Carolina school system has come under fire for teaching sectarian Bible classes on school grounds during school hours.
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I suspect she’s found easier prey elsewhere – Paul will hunt her down.
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What I don’t get is how evangelicals think we are just supposed to believe, as if we can just flip a switch.
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I apologize to any Brits out there. I guess that would be H.M.S. Beagle, and not S.S. Beagle. Americans, we think everything is about us! : )
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“What I don’t get is how evangelicals think we are just supposed to believe, as if we can just flip a switch.”,/cite>
Gliese, it’s a process. They use emotional manipulation, fear and guilt techniques — you know like telling you you are prideful; egotistical; a sinner. If you are attending church, they will use music (with specific beats per minute) and voice roll (a patterned, paced style used when inducing a trance) to get you into a suggestive brain wave state. This is why they will knock on your door or evangelize in public settings hoping to get you to come to their church. That’s where they are the most effective. These persuasion techniques have been around for a couple hundred years at least.
During the eighteenth century, Jonathan Edwards (who played a significant role in the 1st Great Awakening) oversaw some of the first revivals in 1733–35 at his church in Northampton, Massachusetts. He delivered the sermon “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God“. According to sources these revivals gave Edwards an opportunity for studying the process of conversion in all its phases and varieties, and he recorded his observations in “A Faithful Narrative of the Surprising Work of God in the Conversion of Many Hundred Souls in Northampton” (1737).
By inducing guilt and acute apprehension and by increasing the tension, the “sinners” attending his revival meetings would break down and completely submit, hence where the “alter call” got its beginnings.
He published “Discourses on Various Important Subjects”, and in it boasted of five sermons which had proved most effective in his revivals. He concluded that of those five sermons, he claimed that “Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners” gave immediate, effective results in conversion. Charles J. Finney was another Christian revivalist who used the same techniques four years later in mass religious conversions in New York.
Today, these same techniques are used on unsuspecting people in churches throughout America and abroad. Getting people in a suggestive brain wave state is key.
From Scientific America: The Power of Music: Mind Control by Rhythmic Sound
Rhythmic sound, whether in music or pattern paced voice roll creates a cortical evoked response in the brain.
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I have hesitated a bit to say this here, but what the heck… I’ll say it now. I know that if I choose to allow certain inputs in my brain, such as attending church, talking only to Christians, reading Christian literature, praying in a certain way, etc., I would most likely end up flipping that switch eventually. I don’t think that has any bearing on whether or not a god exists, of course, but on what I would be thinking and feeling about that god.
Ii have conducted experiments of this kind with myself before. What happens is indoctrination, not god being revealed. Kathy, if you’re reading this, do not interpret this as pride please. The main quality behind this is fear. I am afraid of crossing that line of experimenting into actual faith. I don’t want to be a part of that great Amway sales meeting that is evangelical Christianity. In order to do that, I’d have to leave individual thought at the door, And I’d become part of the collective group brain-suck. About that, I am absolutely stubborn, rebellious, prideful, and afraid.
If Jesus actually shows up or something happens in my life that naturally leads to belief, so be it. I say this after having gone to church, prayed, read the Bible, and generally been open-minded to whatever degree I could muster. To me that’s fair.
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When religion has to resort to such methodology in order to convert you, it becomes obvious to those who are able to think critically, that something is awry. The same tactics being used by religious leaders are nearly identical to the tactics used by dictators and as you pointed out, Amway sales meeting.
Marcel Kinsbourne, a neurologist, cognitive neuroscientist and a professor of psychology, states that Hitler created an environment that induced entrainment (synchronizing brainwaves to outside stimuli), thus enhancing the power of suggestion.
Hitler Salute During a Political Rally
Christian Praise and Worship Service
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Yep, samey-samey
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You are wise to guard your mind. Vultures are circulating.
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…or rather circling. Both apply, actually.
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Hitler understood the cohesive value of religion too:
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“We need believing people.”
Yep!
Vladimir Putin is using the same tactic.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/vladimir-putin-christian-crusader/
Most people are simply gullible, like Kathy. Monkey see, monkey do.
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I’ve heard of The Russian Tea Room, an exclusive restaurant in New York City, but the Russian Tea Party?
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Hahaha — Putin may be insane but he ain’t dumb.
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http://americanfreepress.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Putin_Christian_2-300×231.jp
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https://twitter.com/kayms99/status/519314536659435521
Kathy is harassing ben Affleck on twitter.
she is arguing that gay marriage is more of a detriment to mankind than environmental issues.
yep, Kathy is part of a hate group alright.
what a b!tch.
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